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[Music]

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thank you

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[Music]

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class is in session with the invisible

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night school tonight for anyone joining

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us welcome with your live or watching a

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rerun we are so glad you're here

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the invisible night school is a small

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Consortium of lay researchers and

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Scholars analytically exploring UFOs

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uaps High strangeness and the cultural

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and social implications of the

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phenomenon

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you can find us at the

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invisiblenightschool.com make sure to

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make sure to share like subscribe to our

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channel to help us grow so it's finally

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spooky season tonight we're going to be

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talking about ghosts without any further

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delay I'd like to welcome my co-hosts

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Nick coffin Callis

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Campo marrera good evening gentlemen how

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are you guys doing well

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and how are you

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oh I'm doing great Campbell I am super

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excited it's finally cold here in

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Upstate New York the weather's nice it's

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the best time of the year right it's

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time to like

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conjure Spirits Slaughter goats under a

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full moon on hay rides all that good

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stuff have the leaves started the

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Turning where you are yet

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not yet uh usually around like second or

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third week of October though we get lots

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of uh tourists up from New York City and

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Boston that like to drive around and do

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the leaf peeping thing yeah they'd be

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gone here uh just outside Ottawa up in

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Ontario I've got a few patches out my

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back window that I can see that they've

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been they've actually been changing for

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the past week or two excellent I'm I'm

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ready for it okay

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dude of course you are and you are the

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man of the hour you are a resident ghost

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expert

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hey yeah sure as much as anyone is right

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yes yeah so yeah we're taking a hard

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pivot away from UFOs aliens and all that

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good stuff towards uh disembodied

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Spirits yeah Nick I want to talk about

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not just ghosts but kind of like

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our modern idea of ghosts

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um and ghost hunting in in the uh the

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technology that kind of goes hand in

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hand with it because Leah you said

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something I think it was a couple

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episodes ago about the Advent of radio

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and Telegram and stuff like these

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invisible means of communication and I

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think that that kind of concept is uh at

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the root of a lot of this or just kind

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of bleeding edge Technologies meeting

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the populace and their kind of

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um

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not the greatest grasp of it and just

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kind of trying to use it to speak with

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the dead that's a recurring theme

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throughout history

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but before all that it starts way back I

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believe in my opinion with uh Anton

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Messmer are you familiar with him

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no is he the namesake that drives

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mesmerism yes uh agnostic that's all I

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know we've exhausted my knowledge so

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um mesmerism yeah it does come from him

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back in the 1760s he was going to the

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University of Vienna and he developed a

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theory uh that was highly borrowed from

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Alchemy and astrology uh to quote him

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through the medium of subtle fluid which

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pervades the universe and Associates all

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things together in a mutual intercourse

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in harmony which sounds like the force

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but it also

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um kind of conjures The Ether right

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which uh by the time the telegram was

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demonstrated and being used that was

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kind of the preeminent and actual

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scientific thought that this is where

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like light and radio waves and

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electricity flowed through this kind of

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concept of a medium I I see that we

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describe Consciousness kind of in this

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way now or um alternate Dimensions it's

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just this kind of other realm that's

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laid on top of us

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so yeah it sounds like this sort of like

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energy Fields or grids that you hear new

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agers talk about so Messmer believed to

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this and these are these are actually

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older ideas like I said from Alchemy and

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astrology but he also

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um kind of Incorporated healing forces

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with that that he thought he could

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um kind of harness with magnets

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um originally just actual magnets

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um but then something he developed

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called animal magnetism which I think is

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a term people use now

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but um what he meant it was a kind of

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like a hand-waving thing

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um you wave your hands over and you're

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influencing this field this magnetic

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field to heal and in this process of

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doing these things the patience and

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these demonstrations they would lose

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control of their limbs and convulsion

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they would enter a trance State and

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that's why Mesmer is important no

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mesmerism kind of picked up and it was

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becoming popular

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um

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at the time I think I think it was right

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around the same time there's a menu

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Emmanuel swedenborg oh yeah yeah do you

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know who this is the swedenberg church

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um actually in back in another life when

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I used to do socialist organizing uh I

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know one of the guys in the group that I

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was that I ran in uh had been raised in

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the swedenberg church interesting so

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it's my understanding of uh

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swedenborgians is that uh it's it's

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essentially kind of a denomination of

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Christianity right

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it's similar

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okay uh the distinction I noticed was

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kind of their um

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their their concept of purgatory now uh

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Emmanuel swedenborg uh he got he claimed

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that he got a lot of insight and

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inspiration from Spirits though while he

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was alive he claimed that they

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communicated uh through dreams with him

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whatever you would call it uh that was

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becoming popular at the same time as

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mesmerism and so swedenberg's followers

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kind of took a few from mesmerism and

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noticed that this this mesmerized state

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is people were in this uh this trance

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State could facilitate spirit

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communication and that's kind of the

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impetus of spirit mediums it was the

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blending of things because this time in

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America a lot of new religions were

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popping up in between now and like the

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middle of the 1800s you had Mormonism

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and adventism popping up right around

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the same time too and of course

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spiritualism

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being started by the fox sisters are you

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guys familiar with the fox sisters no no

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okay so uh in hyattville New York

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um they lived in a farmhouse it was

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later moved to Lilydale

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burned down in 1955 unfortunately right

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and this is like Upstate Western New

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York right yep right sure

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um but they were uh mother father two

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kids there was an older daughter too who

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lived away and was married but there's

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two kids Margaret and Katie there were

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15 and 12 respectively they moved into

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this house in New York and um they were

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known for kind of playing pranks on

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their mom they'd attached apples to

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Strings and kind of drop them down the

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stairs to make footstep noises and they

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would do this all the time and then make

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banging on the walls and stuff like that

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in their house until one night I believe

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it was March 31st 1848 my notes to say

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the mother made them go to bed early and

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there's all this snapping and popping

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and stuff in the mob they they were

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sleeping up in the second floor of the

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attic of this cabin it's a little Shack

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she goes up there and is looking around

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with a candle trying to find the source

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of all this and they're in bed

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claiming to be communicating with a

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spirit named Mr split foot

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and they would they would clap or snap

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their fingers and then rapping as it's

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described would mimic it back now this

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freaked out the mom completely the dad

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Clues she ends up starting to kind of

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tell her neighbors about this about how

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they're facilitating communication with

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the Dead with a series of knocks like

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yes or once for yes twice so this is

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where the whole like Trope of table

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wrapping comes from yes yes okay the

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origin of this and I think it's

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interesting and like we were seeing

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earlier um about that thing you said I

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think just five years prior was the

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first like big public demonstrations of

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the telegram which were

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um Morse code was used for that so a

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series of Taps right essentially was

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facilitate or facilitating communication

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so they get to this point where all the

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neighbors are starting to hear about it

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like oh these Fox daughters they can

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communicate with the Dead Oh I can talk

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to my to my loved ones this way and word

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starts picking up like pretty quick all

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the neighbors everyone in the town

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um

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excuse me the older sister Leah she

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hears about this she's kind of fallen on

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hard times I think she's a widow at this

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time so she runs back

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and talks to the sisters and gets the

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scoop on this and realizes that they

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could monetize this essentially

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um they could set up a patreon or an

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only fan yeah

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she starts giving all these

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demonstrations meanwhile the local the

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church that they belong to is

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excommunicated them all the churches are

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kind of

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claiming that they're practicing

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Witchcraft and this is heresy

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but at the time this press was there's

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no such thing as bad pressed right this

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is just spreading the word more so yeah

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I believe it was 1849 Leah the other one

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went South Corinthians Hall it was the

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biggest Auditorium in um

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sorry where are the oh it's in Rochester

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New York which is the biggest town near

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them and they started doing these huge

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demonstrations night after night all the

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papers who were kind of like sarcastic

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about them

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um started showing up and witnessing

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these these demonstrations where they're

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demonstrating

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what appears to be knowledge they

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couldn't know communicating through

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these series of taps so were they doing

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like any kind of medium mediumship or

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like cold or hot reading or were they

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just talking to miss

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foot here uh

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to like multiple dead spirits but the

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it mainly consisted of these knocks that

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seemed to come out of nowhere

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um

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and uh displayed them in the American

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Museum

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that tells you anything

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um during these Corinthian Hall uh

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exhibits that you know went on night

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after night after night there was groups

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of Skeptics that were trying to come and

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kind of uh foil this at one time they

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lit a bunch of firecrackers and the

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sound and the smoke freaked out everyone

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so much there was almost a riot and cops

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had to come so Skeptics being nefarious

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uh from the get-go right so

278
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um let's see they begin touring uh

279
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:38,660
further and further out in 1850 uh

280
00:11:43,730 --> 00:11:42,000
I'm just uh checking my notes yeah and

281
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:43,740
this is it you know what this reminds me

282
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:45,839
of too is like

283
00:11:50,030 --> 00:11:48,060
so this is like the burnover district in

284
00:11:51,530 --> 00:11:50,040
New York right in Upstate New York and

285
00:11:53,449 --> 00:11:51,540
like there's tons and tons of emergent

286
00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:53,459
religions and like this is also a red

287
00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:55,260
one when Mormonism is starting to gain

288
00:11:59,410 --> 00:11:56,880
traction and start moving West too

289
00:12:02,030 --> 00:11:59,420
Mormonism I think is what like the 1830s

290
00:12:04,190 --> 00:12:02,040
1820s 1830s

291
00:12:06,290 --> 00:12:04,200
um and that happened in Palmyra New York

292
00:12:08,990 --> 00:12:06,300
which is right near Rochester right

293
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:09,000
um this whole this all there's tons of

294
00:12:12,290 --> 00:12:10,560
movements that are originating from this

295
00:12:14,389 --> 00:12:12,300
area of New York State at this point the

296
00:12:16,670 --> 00:12:14,399
Oneida Community is there

297
00:12:18,050 --> 00:12:16,680
um yeah they're they're pretty cool

298
00:12:21,410 --> 00:12:18,060
they're not really about ghosts they're

299
00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:21,420
more about like silverware yeah now

300
00:12:24,769 --> 00:12:23,040
they're about silverware it used to be

301
00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:24,779
their whole thing was being a free love

302
00:12:28,970 --> 00:12:27,120
Community oh nice that was what they

303
00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:28,980
were founded on like in the in the 19th

304
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:30,540
century but now it's just known for like

305
00:12:36,110 --> 00:12:33,200
dishware and flatware and stuff

306
00:12:37,610 --> 00:12:36,120
but yeah like this is an area of the

307
00:12:39,889 --> 00:12:37,620
country that was really like driving a

308
00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:39,899
lot of this stuff we have mormonisms Fox

309
00:12:43,009 --> 00:12:42,300
sisters with the Shakers

310
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:43,019
um

311
00:12:47,090 --> 00:12:45,360
so anyway continue I don't want to

312
00:12:48,769 --> 00:12:47,100
interrupt well the fox sisters are

313
00:12:50,690 --> 00:12:48,779
becoming bigger and bigger and what's

314
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:50,700
happening is Copycat mediums start

315
00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:52,320
popping up all over the place and

316
00:12:56,750 --> 00:12:55,320
eventually these new mediums

317
00:12:59,090 --> 00:12:56,760
um start using New Tricks they become

318
00:13:01,910 --> 00:12:59,100
physical mediums where they are uh

319
00:13:03,769 --> 00:13:01,920
producing airports airports are just any

320
00:13:06,769 --> 00:13:03,779
physical object that seems to kind of

321
00:13:09,710 --> 00:13:06,779
come from this ether this other realm

322
00:13:12,590 --> 00:13:09,720
like trumpets or ectoplasm things like

323
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:12,600
that that are conducted in these seances

324
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:15,120
um and are they see us is largely like

325
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:16,800
large group settings like in these

326
00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:18,480
auditoriums or people doing these as

327
00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:20,760
like parlor tricks at like House parties

328
00:13:26,750 --> 00:13:23,880
and stuff it's it's really weird since

329
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:26,760
sense the popularity of the fox sisters

330
00:13:30,530 --> 00:13:28,560
and this concept of facilitating

331
00:13:32,509 --> 00:13:30,540
communication from the dead via a medium

332
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:32,519
this is like the the beginning of the

333
00:13:37,129 --> 00:13:33,680
spiritualist

334
00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:37,139
religion well it's not like structured

335
00:13:41,329 --> 00:13:38,880
hierarchically

336
00:13:44,269 --> 00:13:41,339
and uh there's no like leaders in this

337
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:44,279
movement it is kind of just a religion

338
00:13:49,310 --> 00:13:46,639
based on the one tenant that there are

339
00:13:51,230 --> 00:13:49,320
the soul is Immortal and there are

340
00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:51,240
methods in which to communicate with

341
00:13:55,190 --> 00:13:53,220
them and how are they uh how are they

342
00:13:57,290 --> 00:13:55,200
monetizing this primarily is it through

343
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:57,300
these sort of small group things

344
00:14:02,449 --> 00:13:59,760
yes yeah they're they're going and doing

345
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:02,459
shows or at the Museum where the uh

346
00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:04,320
people are paying Barnum to come see

347
00:14:10,190 --> 00:14:07,500
them essentially give readings oh wow so

348
00:14:11,629 --> 00:14:10,200
yeah so now uh more mediums more and

349
00:14:13,490 --> 00:14:11,639
more medium start popping up and they're

350
00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:13,500
kind of overshadowing the fox sisters at

351
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:16,320
this point they're kind of old news in I

352
00:14:21,290 --> 00:14:19,440
believe it was 1888 Margaret the older

353
00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:21,300
of the two uh was offered fifteen

354
00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:24,120
hundred dollars by a newspaper to reveal

355
00:14:30,110 --> 00:14:27,360
the true story which she accepted and

356
00:14:32,449 --> 00:14:30,120
explained that she was creating those uh

357
00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:32,459
those knocking noises by like

358
00:14:36,889 --> 00:14:34,680
popping her knee joint and cracking her

359
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:36,899
toes I don't know if anyone can crack

360
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:38,160
their knuckles

361
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:39,600
consecutively but it was essentially

362
00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:40,560
this

363
00:14:46,269 --> 00:14:43,260
now um we have their older sister

364
00:14:48,829 --> 00:14:46,279
manager called her a liar by this point

365
00:14:51,889 --> 00:14:48,839
by this point uh the sisters were

366
00:14:53,810 --> 00:14:51,899
alcoholics they had lost their husbands

367
00:14:55,129 --> 00:14:53,820
um Katie actually in one of the

368
00:14:57,829 --> 00:14:55,139
auditoriums where Margaret was

369
00:14:59,210 --> 00:14:57,839
confessing all this Katie stood up in

370
00:15:02,329 --> 00:14:59,220
public and said yes she this is right

371
00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:02,339
this is all bogus but then um there was

372
00:15:06,290 --> 00:15:04,260
kind of a backlash and they recanted it

373
00:15:08,569 --> 00:15:06,300
but the spiritualist movement has moved

374
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:08,579
on from the fox sisters at this point I

375
00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:10,079
think they died a few years later they

376
00:15:14,750 --> 00:15:12,959
didn't live very long that was that was

377
00:15:16,189 --> 00:15:14,760
kind of the end of it

378
00:15:18,650 --> 00:15:16,199
um but meanwhile

379
00:15:20,810 --> 00:15:18,660
in 1882 the society for psychical

380
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:20,820
research research is founded in London

381
00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:23,519
and two years later an American chapter

382
00:15:28,490 --> 00:15:26,220
opens up this is a meaning of

383
00:15:30,889 --> 00:15:28,500
preeminent scientists and thinkers of

384
00:15:32,030 --> 00:15:30,899
the time kind of formed these groups and

385
00:15:33,710 --> 00:15:32,040
decided

386
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:33,720
we want to investigate all these things

387
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:35,519
it did start off as an interest in

388
00:15:43,329 --> 00:15:38,399
speaking with the dead that later kind

389
00:15:46,129 --> 00:15:43,339
of evolved into what we now know as ESP

390
00:15:47,389 --> 00:15:46,139
sorry go ahead I just think it's always

391
00:15:49,790 --> 00:15:47,399
worth

392
00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:49,800
I think it's interesting to talk about

393
00:15:54,530 --> 00:15:52,500
why or what would be catalyzing this

394
00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:54,540
interest in speaking with the dead this

395
00:15:58,370 --> 00:15:56,040
is something that humans have wanted to

396
00:16:00,650 --> 00:15:58,380
do forever right like or feo and you're

397
00:16:03,949 --> 00:16:00,660
a DJ like we have people descending into

398
00:16:06,170 --> 00:16:03,959
the underworld we have Hamlet and ghosts

399
00:16:08,509 --> 00:16:06,180
Macbeth like this is stuff that's

400
00:16:11,150 --> 00:16:08,519
existed in Shakespeare as well but like

401
00:16:13,610 --> 00:16:11,160
this is also on the end of I mean in the

402
00:16:17,150 --> 00:16:13,620
United States it's the Civil War

403
00:16:19,129 --> 00:16:17,160
um and yeah lots of death and I would

404
00:16:22,250 --> 00:16:19,139
assume lots of Interest or sort of a

405
00:16:24,829 --> 00:16:22,260
Resurgence an interest in post-life

406
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,839
communication and I think like Alexander

407
00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:26,639
Graham Bell like his whole thing before

408
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:28,260
the telephone was trying to create

409
00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:30,000
devices that could communicate with the

410
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:32,220
dead if I'm correct I think that might

411
00:16:35,449 --> 00:16:33,600
be a rumor I don't know about the

412
00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:35,459
accuracy anymore actually

413
00:16:42,829 --> 00:16:38,040
um there was a quote in Scientific

414
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:42,839
American back then where he said if they

415
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:45,120
if they could subtly influence something

416
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:46,800
enough then we should be able to design

417
00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:48,420
things that can pick it up essentially

418
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:51,300
it was paraphrase so like he was open to

419
00:16:56,329 --> 00:16:53,279
I mean a lot of people were at this

420
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:56,339
point well I mean it's on yeah like you

421
00:17:00,290 --> 00:16:58,079
said it's on it's on the heels of the

422
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:00,300
Civil War lots of death like death is on

423
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,920
the mind

424
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:04,079
some new technologies are emerging that

425
00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:05,520
are allowing us to communicate with

426
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:07,740
people at Great distances by seeming

427
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,640
Magic

428
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,280
so yeah it all it all kind of tracks I I

429
00:17:16,909 --> 00:17:13,199
would say in in kind of a loosey-goosey

430
00:17:19,250 --> 00:17:16,919
way and it it strikes me like uh with

431
00:17:22,789 --> 00:17:19,260
the UFO subject there is a similarity

432
00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:22,799
there where it's reflected in a change

433
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:25,740
in the cultural uh cosmology almost

434
00:17:30,770 --> 00:17:28,799
because in the you know 20th century you

435
00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:30,780
had this emergence of an awareness of

436
00:17:35,210 --> 00:17:32,700
all of the things we take for granted

437
00:17:37,610 --> 00:17:35,220
today and cosmology the Big Bang expand

438
00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:37,620
the universe even the idea that their

439
00:17:42,830 --> 00:17:39,840
universe or galaxies that are

440
00:17:45,230 --> 00:17:42,840
independent of the Milky Way galaxy and

441
00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:45,240
then you've got this thing that you can

442
00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:47,220
refer to and say like oh maybe there's

443
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:49,860
like you know there there's a sufficient

444
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:51,360
grounds to think it's possible there are

445
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:52,740
aliens out there coming to see us right

446
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:54,600
because there's so many planets and then

447
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:57,120
with the ghost stuff it's almost like

448
00:18:01,669 --> 00:17:59,039
electromagnetism was coming in that was

449
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:01,679
a whole new realm right and it's like it

450
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:03,840
opens up the possibility and so it makes

451
00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:05,520
so much sense that that would be latched

452
00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:08,580
onto by people who have an interest in

453
00:18:11,690 --> 00:18:10,500
and trying to actually achieve these

454
00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:11,700
kinds of things

455
00:18:14,990 --> 00:18:12,840
right

456
00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:15,000
so now we're kind of in the era of

457
00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:17,940
seances and mediums and

458
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,980
people investigating them and trying to

459
00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:21,360
bust them

460
00:18:25,909 --> 00:18:23,700
um Michael Faraday actually kind of

461
00:18:28,909 --> 00:18:25,919
incidentally discovered the idiomotor

462
00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:28,919
effect trying to explain table tipping

463
00:18:34,430 --> 00:18:32,100
what he did was he he took cardboard and

464
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:34,440
rubber cement on top of the table

465
00:18:39,890 --> 00:18:37,679
and he you know looked at it first and

466
00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:39,900
then after the kind of table wrapping

467
00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:42,120
movement you could see that it the

468
00:18:45,289 --> 00:18:43,799
cardboard move because the the adhesive

469
00:18:46,789 --> 00:18:45,299
on the rubber cement allowed for it to

470
00:18:49,850 --> 00:18:46,799
like move slightly so you could tell

471
00:18:51,890 --> 00:18:49,860
that the uh people subconsciously were

472
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:51,900
moving these tables around there were

473
00:18:55,130 --> 00:18:53,280
other gimmicks of course I think people

474
00:18:56,690 --> 00:18:55,140
had hooks on their belt loops to make

475
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:56,700
them raise and so

476
00:19:01,970 --> 00:18:58,320
a lot of

477
00:19:03,950 --> 00:19:01,980
um stage magic was used to

478
00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:03,960
um to perform these seances and that's

479
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:05,820
that's a lot of what the society for

480
00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:08,160
psychical research did both in the

481
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:10,020
states and in England

482
00:19:16,430 --> 00:19:12,720
um Arthur Conan Doyle resigned from the

483
00:19:17,870 --> 00:19:16,440
spr in it was 1930. it was what did he

484
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:17,880
say it was in protest is what he

485
00:19:22,430 --> 00:19:20,160
regarded as spr's overly restrictive

486
00:19:24,169 --> 00:19:22,440
standards of proof which I think is

487
00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:24,179
interesting the author the author of

488
00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:25,980
Sherlock Holmes they were too skeptical

489
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:29,220
yeah yeah well and he he's Infamous uh

490
00:19:33,470 --> 00:19:31,440
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for the uh the

491
00:19:34,909 --> 00:19:33,480
fairy uh thing if you remember that yeah

492
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:34,919
and that's also kind of similar because

493
00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:37,200
it was a couple sisters who were uh

494
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:39,900
swearing that they were interacting with

495
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:42,559
fairies and then uh you know

496
00:19:47,390 --> 00:19:44,880
bought into it and that caused some

497
00:19:49,490 --> 00:19:47,400
issues for him yes things became more

498
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,500
clear he got into a big Feud with uh

499
00:19:55,310 --> 00:19:51,840
Houdini who was famous for for um

500
00:19:58,130 --> 00:19:55,320
exposing mediums and psychics right

501
00:20:00,110 --> 00:19:58,140
so we're moving out of the 1800s now um

502
00:20:01,970 --> 00:20:00,120
actually in 1891 there was a book called

503
00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:01,980
Revelations of a spirit medium that

504
00:20:06,289 --> 00:20:03,900
exposed a lot of these tricks and it was

505
00:20:07,490 --> 00:20:06,299
uh it was anonymously authored I have a

506
00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:07,500
copy of that I should share it with you

507
00:20:09,950 --> 00:20:08,220
guys

508
00:20:12,409 --> 00:20:09,960
I also want to touch on one other thing

509
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:12,419
in 1907 and I consider this man a ghost

510
00:20:19,070 --> 00:20:16,260
hunter kind of before it happened is uh

511
00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:19,080
Duncan McDougall in 1907 I think you

512
00:20:24,830 --> 00:20:20,960
guys might know who this is he's the guy

513
00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:24,840
who uh essentially thought that the soul

514
00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:28,140
was a material so he weighed people and

515
00:20:36,350 --> 00:20:30,960
animals as they were dying in an effort

516
00:20:39,529 --> 00:20:36,360
to kind of uh record the quantify yeah

517
00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:39,539
that's where the story 21 Grams uh idea

518
00:20:44,750 --> 00:20:43,080
comes from the idea that the soul was a

519
00:20:47,090 --> 00:20:44,760
material thing that could be measured

520
00:20:48,529 --> 00:20:47,100
right and like if you think in an

521
00:20:50,350 --> 00:20:48,539
abstract way I mean that's what Ghost

522
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:50,360
Hunters are doing now

523
00:20:55,130 --> 00:20:53,520
measure uh essentially the soul or maybe

524
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:55,140
the secular version of the Soul or

525
00:20:59,930 --> 00:20:58,080
whether it's energy or life force

526
00:21:01,669 --> 00:20:59,940
um but yeah I think he was he was one of

527
00:21:03,529 --> 00:21:01,679
the earlier people to do that

528
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:03,539
um that's where that 21 Grams thing come

529
00:21:07,010 --> 00:21:05,280
from should be known though as his

530
00:21:08,590 --> 00:21:07,020
experiments I think there was only six

531
00:21:11,870 --> 00:21:08,600
people and like

532
00:21:14,750 --> 00:21:11,880
five cattle I think and only one

533
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,760
resulted in a weight loss it was that 21

534
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:16,559
Grams it was all over the place never

535
00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:19,440
reproduced but what's interesting

536
00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:21,660
um it's later in time when we get into

537
00:21:26,750 --> 00:21:24,600
Duke University and JB Ryan JB Ryan went

538
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:26,760
to go study with McDougall that same

539
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:29,220
McDougall for a year and that's kind of

540
00:21:34,130 --> 00:21:32,159
how uh the Duke University ESP Labs were

541
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:34,140
created that's a little bit ahead of the

542
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:34,860
time

543
00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:36,000
um

544
00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:38,580
we started getting people like uh Harry

545
00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:40,980
price he was kind of

546
00:21:45,529 --> 00:21:43,020
there was another person

547
00:21:48,049 --> 00:21:45,539
um who was it Elliott O'Donnell and

548
00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:48,059
Harry price these were um kind of

549
00:21:52,730 --> 00:21:50,340
Celebrity Ghost Hunters at the time they

550
00:21:56,990 --> 00:21:52,740
investigated borderly rectory

551
00:22:00,649 --> 00:21:58,490
um like when we're talking about ghost

552
00:22:02,930 --> 00:22:00,659
hunting and ghost stuff at this period

553
00:22:04,610 --> 00:22:02,940
it feels like it also kind of bifurcates

554
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:04,620
you have people that are running these

555
00:22:09,529 --> 00:22:06,960
events like the fox sisters or other

556
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:09,539
mediums where they set up an event they

557
00:22:13,909 --> 00:22:12,240
conjure a spirit communicate Etc but

558
00:22:16,190 --> 00:22:13,919
then there's also

559
00:22:18,649 --> 00:22:16,200
um in my mind this other set of people

560
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:18,659
who are investigating ghosts right or

561
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:20,640
going to particular locations that they

562
00:22:25,490 --> 00:22:22,799
think are haunted yeah um

563
00:22:28,190 --> 00:22:25,500
when did we see that start to emerge as

564
00:22:31,130 --> 00:22:28,200
a behavior like actually going on site

565
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:31,140
to go to like a hotel or a rectory or a

566
00:22:35,630 --> 00:22:33,360
house that's been reported as having

567
00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:35,640
hauntings turn of the century so like

568
00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:38,700
early 1900s is when Elliot O'Donnell and

569
00:22:43,789 --> 00:22:40,500
Harry price were doing and these were

570
00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:43,799
kind of the pioneers of this actually

571
00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:45,780
um Harry price wrote a book really early

572
00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:47,880
and he listed the contents of his ghost

573
00:22:53,149 --> 00:22:50,340
hunting kit I'm going to read a couple

574
00:22:54,250 --> 00:22:53,159
of those things uh measuring tape screw

575
00:22:57,710 --> 00:22:54,260
eyes

576
00:22:59,510 --> 00:22:57,720
uh small electric bells and switches

577
00:23:00,409 --> 00:22:59,520
flashlights

578
00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:00,419
um

579
00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:01,740
one thing I thought was really

580
00:23:08,570 --> 00:23:04,500
interesting let me do uh

581
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:08,580
a vessel of mercury to detect movement

582
00:23:13,010 --> 00:23:10,080
which I thought was really interesting

583
00:23:15,049 --> 00:23:13,020
and then um how does he say it they were

584
00:23:17,210 --> 00:23:15,059
essentially infrared filters for his

585
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:17,220
camera to uh take pictures in near

586
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:19,260
darkness which is really interesting

587
00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:20,880
because that's something that's a Trope

588
00:23:25,070 --> 00:23:23,280
we see today

589
00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:25,080
um despite the claims of the hauntings

590
00:23:29,510 --> 00:23:27,720
that any current paranormal team are

591
00:23:31,070 --> 00:23:29,520
investigating they always do it at night

592
00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:31,080
in the dark which I think is interesting

593
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:33,000
because you're like limiting

594
00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:35,039
one of your senses while you're trying

595
00:23:39,049 --> 00:23:37,140
to be observant I think I think it's

596
00:23:40,730 --> 00:23:39,059
kind of a strange but I think that

597
00:23:45,289 --> 00:23:40,740
that's actually where that comes from

598
00:23:47,510 --> 00:23:45,299
but just uh Harry price turned out to be

599
00:23:50,210 --> 00:23:47,520
a believer I believe he investigated uh

600
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:50,220
Duty Hume who is another kind of

601
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:52,799
spiritual medium he

602
00:23:57,470 --> 00:23:55,919
uh claim the ability of precognition and

603
00:23:59,330 --> 00:23:57,480
levitation

604
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:59,340
um a lot of people investigated him and

605
00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:01,679
they said he would levitate and fly out

606
00:24:05,090 --> 00:24:04,380
a window and come in another

607
00:24:09,770 --> 00:24:05,100
um

608
00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:09,780
no one has been able to uh conclusively

609
00:24:15,710 --> 00:24:12,840
debunk DD hume's uh actions and claims

610
00:24:17,149 --> 00:24:15,720
though I think a lot of people

611
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:17,159
um were leaning towards more stage

612
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,440
missions tricks and can kind of explain

613
00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:21,840
how he did these things but he was said

614
00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:23,700
to yeah levitate up to the up to the

615
00:24:27,169 --> 00:24:25,919
ceiling fly out windows and come back in

616
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:27,179
uh

617
00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:28,640
speak to the dead of course

618
00:24:33,890 --> 00:24:31,980
prognosticate the future of these things

619
00:24:35,270 --> 00:24:33,900
so those were kind of like the Proto

620
00:24:38,270 --> 00:24:35,280
Ghost Hunters

621
00:24:42,049 --> 00:24:38,280
um up until about the I think it was the

622
00:24:44,029 --> 00:24:42,059
30s when JB Ryan starts coming in and uh

623
00:24:47,330 --> 00:24:44,039
kind of coins the term parapsychology

624
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,340
trying to put in even more scientific uh

625
00:24:52,850 --> 00:24:50,159
spin on investigating these things uh

626
00:24:55,370 --> 00:24:52,860
that's where the term Psy comes from and

627
00:24:58,909 --> 00:24:55,380
this is uh essentially birthing the idea

628
00:25:02,149 --> 00:24:58,919
that poltergeists are um

629
00:25:03,890 --> 00:25:02,159
psychic events rather than ghosts

630
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:03,900
and Leah I know you read a little bit

631
00:25:08,570 --> 00:25:06,480
about JB uh JB Ryan in Duke University

632
00:25:11,690 --> 00:25:08,580
and stuff this is kind of

633
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:11,700
uh a turning point with ghosts and

634
00:25:16,010 --> 00:25:13,919
paranormal investigation in my opinion

635
00:25:17,390 --> 00:25:16,020
because a lot of

636
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:17,400
um we were talking about this earlier

637
00:25:21,710 --> 00:25:19,320
like I said uh

638
00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:21,720
poltergeists were deemed or it was kind

639
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:23,700
of offered up as uh what he called

640
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:26,400
recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis

641
00:25:31,610 --> 00:25:29,460
meaning that um the person themselves

642
00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:31,620
wasn't or weren't being haunted they

643
00:25:36,649 --> 00:25:33,480
were psychically moving all these things

644
00:25:38,510 --> 00:25:36,659
around them unbeknownst to them it was a

645
00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:38,520
projection from a living person rather

646
00:25:44,269 --> 00:25:40,559
than a disembodied Spirit doing this

647
00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:44,279
stuff uh another another person at Duke

648
00:25:48,049 --> 00:25:46,200
um kind of uh put forth the idea that

649
00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:48,059
crisis apparitions were

650
00:25:52,610 --> 00:25:50,520
uh psychic Visions rather than those

651
00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:52,620
crisis apparitions being

652
00:25:58,010 --> 00:25:55,080
um a loved one dies and you see an

653
00:26:00,830 --> 00:25:58,020
apparition of them in that moment

654
00:26:03,710 --> 00:26:00,840
um so this is this is kind of where

655
00:26:06,649 --> 00:26:03,720
parapsychology and psychical research

656
00:26:11,149 --> 00:26:06,659
diverge from ghost hunting it's kind of

657
00:26:14,149 --> 00:26:11,159
the uh 1930s era but a lot of a lot of

658
00:26:17,450 --> 00:26:14,159
the um the language and Technology will

659
00:26:19,549 --> 00:26:17,460
get interwoven as we move further into

660
00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:19,559
the 1900s

661
00:26:24,049 --> 00:26:22,500
um because parapsychologists are trying

662
00:26:26,690 --> 00:26:24,059
to do this academically I mean they they

663
00:26:28,010 --> 00:26:26,700
are writing journals but quite

664
00:26:28,610 --> 00:26:28,020
prolifically

665
00:26:30,409 --> 00:26:28,620
um

666
00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:30,419
spinning these journals out and giving

667
00:26:33,649 --> 00:26:32,100
lectures and that's where I think a lot

668
00:26:35,630 --> 00:26:33,659
of like budding Ghost Hunters went to

669
00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:35,640
see these lectures and they hear about

670
00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:38,100
these terms like um

671
00:26:42,110 --> 00:26:40,020
when when these parapsychologists side

672
00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:42,120
of Duke would investigate Poltergeist in

673
00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:44,100
ghost activity they would bring all this

674
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:46,500
high-tech gear and the magnetometers and

675
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:49,919
the typographs and all that stuff to

676
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:52,080
um the way the way they kind of

677
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:54,240
described it is uh

678
00:26:58,669 --> 00:26:57,360
they are measuring footprints on the

679
00:27:00,110 --> 00:26:58,679
beach they're not measuring what made

680
00:27:02,570 --> 00:27:00,120
the footprints but they're measuring the

681
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:02,580
the changes so they would essentially

682
00:27:05,210 --> 00:27:04,080
the way they described this is they'd

683
00:27:06,169 --> 00:27:05,220
come in and they get all these bass

684
00:27:07,789 --> 00:27:06,179
readings because they don't know what

685
00:27:10,130 --> 00:27:07,799
they're looking for right there's no

686
00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:10,140
correlation between any of these things

687
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:11,940
so they're just like let's record the

688
00:27:16,850 --> 00:27:14,100
environment for a long time then if any

689
00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:16,860
of these uh claimed activities happen we

690
00:27:22,250 --> 00:27:19,500
can notice if there's any changes in

691
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:22,260
these it's kind of like hone in on what

692
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:24,000
they were looking for now this that

693
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:25,440
whole concept

694
00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:28,799
gets kind of Taken and twisted around a

695
00:27:33,529 --> 00:27:31,440
bit by Ghost Hunters later on but that's

696
00:27:35,870 --> 00:27:33,539
kind of the emphasis of that my my

697
00:27:38,029 --> 00:27:35,880
impression so I read on your

698
00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:38,039
recommendation that book by Stacy horn

699
00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:41,340
unbelievable which is like a a pretty I

700
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:43,500
it seems to be sort of the only super

701
00:27:48,409 --> 00:27:46,559
accessible extent dive into the

702
00:27:51,649 --> 00:27:48,419
parapsychology work being done at Duke

703
00:27:53,210 --> 00:27:51,659
in the 30s 40s 50s and on and one of the

704
00:27:56,090 --> 00:27:53,220
things that stood out to me first of all

705
00:27:56,690 --> 00:27:56,100
was that JB Ryan himself was

706
00:27:59,870 --> 00:27:56,700
um

707
00:28:02,269 --> 00:27:59,880
I would say pretty pretty skeptical in

708
00:28:04,970 --> 00:28:02,279
his approach like he was very

709
00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:04,980
um stayed in terms of adhering to the

710
00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:08,100
scientific method and holding some

711
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:09,840
degree of rigor for the work that he was

712
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,720
doing he tried yeah he tried exactly he

713
00:28:16,430 --> 00:28:14,159
did the best he could under the

714
00:28:17,090 --> 00:28:16,440
circumstances of what he was doing

715
00:28:19,610 --> 00:28:17,100
um

716
00:28:21,289 --> 00:28:19,620
but the other thing too and this is

717
00:28:23,210 --> 00:28:21,299
always I mean you've heard me harp on

718
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:23,220
this before but it also feels like this

719
00:28:28,190 --> 00:28:25,440
was like the major shift

720
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:28,200
for ghost hunting by seeing

721
00:28:32,149 --> 00:28:30,000
how they were doing it at the

722
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:32,159
parapsychology labs with like

723
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:34,080
instrumentation and with measurement

724
00:28:39,529 --> 00:28:36,480
like bringing what would be at least

725
00:28:42,169 --> 00:28:39,539
superficially conceived of as scientific

726
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,179
rigor to this process yeah so instead of

727
00:28:47,390 --> 00:28:44,640
it just happening in like

728
00:28:49,669 --> 00:28:47,400
at seances in someone's parlor like

729
00:28:51,890 --> 00:28:49,679
there's some degree of instrumentation

730
00:28:54,529 --> 00:28:51,900
and measurement being introduced into

731
00:28:56,930 --> 00:28:54,539
the ghost hunting or exploratory

732
00:28:58,850 --> 00:28:56,940
experience there was there was less

733
00:29:02,870 --> 00:28:58,860
strict versions of that going on during

734
00:29:05,450 --> 00:29:02,880
seances but yes this is trying to bring

735
00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:05,460
all this stuff into a lab and like um

736
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:08,700
people I think would be familiar with

737
00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:10,140
what was going on in these Labs if they

738
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:11,940
remember the beginning of Ghostbusters

739
00:29:16,370 --> 00:29:14,159
where um Bill Murray is doing the

740
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:16,380
psychic test with the zener cards

741
00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:18,240
um actually have some right here

742
00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:20,760
where uh some of the experiments that

743
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,799
were set up where um

744
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,240
people would be in other rooms and

745
00:29:28,370 --> 00:29:26,159
they'd have a set of 25 cards you'll

746
00:29:32,330 --> 00:29:28,380
recognize these I believe

747
00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:32,340
um plus signs I once went on a date with

748
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:34,860
a guy at a brewery and we brought here

749
00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:38,100
he brought a deck of zener cards

750
00:29:44,269 --> 00:29:40,140
I mean we didn't go on any more dates

751
00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:46,070
um you know I don't think I was scoring

752
00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:47,580
particularly high but I also probably

753
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:49,919
had about four ipas in me at that point

754
00:29:54,289 --> 00:29:52,320
so well um some of the stuff I've read

755
00:29:55,490 --> 00:29:54,299
out of the peer psychology journals is

756
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:55,500
like um

757
00:30:01,970 --> 00:29:57,120
since there's five symbols and there's

758
00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:01,980
25 cards uh 25 like uh one in five is

759
00:30:06,049 --> 00:30:04,020
about chance if you do significantly

760
00:30:08,029 --> 00:30:06,059
worse than that they also consider that

761
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:08,039
uh evidence of PSI and they call that

762
00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:11,360
PSI missing they're like fascinating

763
00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:13,740
extra bad you're statistically

764
00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:17,940
significant like you're being crappy at

765
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:20,520
this in in their tests they actually did

766
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:23,039
uh produce some pretty good results with

767
00:30:26,210 --> 00:30:24,960
the zener cards

768
00:30:28,190 --> 00:30:26,220
um though they have never been

769
00:30:30,769 --> 00:30:28,200
replicated

770
00:30:32,930 --> 00:30:30,779
yeah that one guy was like the rock star

771
00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:32,940
Hubert price who I think went on to

772
00:30:37,850 --> 00:30:35,700
become more Pastor like he was pretty

773
00:30:39,889 --> 00:30:37,860
consistently showing that he could

774
00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:39,899
predict at about a 30 I think it was

775
00:30:46,730 --> 00:30:43,440
like 38 to 40 accuracy which is about

776
00:30:49,970 --> 00:30:46,740
twice as good as what you would expect

777
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:49,980
um which is pretty impressive yeah up to

778
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:51,840
it including like I just remembered that

779
00:30:57,230 --> 00:30:54,000
book by Stacey horn they were talking

780
00:30:59,389 --> 00:30:57,240
about how he was able to do this over a

781
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,399
I think a few hundred feet like the

782
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:01,440
person who was testing him would be

783
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:03,600
located outside of the building where

784
00:31:08,990 --> 00:31:06,240
Hubert was located

785
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:09,000
um to identify the codes that is

786
00:31:11,210 --> 00:31:10,320
interesting I know people have brought

787
00:31:13,370 --> 00:31:11,220
up

788
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:13,380
um kind of faults in the experiment and

789
00:31:17,870 --> 00:31:15,120
ways that like

790
00:31:20,029 --> 00:31:17,880
um you could be reading kind of like

791
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:20,039
the other quarter's bias and stuff like

792
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:22,320
that and um actually in the beginning

793
00:31:28,669 --> 00:31:25,679
the cards were somewhat uh translucent

794
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:28,679
so you can kind of see them they started

795
00:31:32,049 --> 00:31:30,000
doing them in other rooms or going

796
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:32,059
outside of the building

797
00:31:36,409 --> 00:31:33,600
also

798
00:31:37,789 --> 00:31:36,419
um around this is around the 60s so it's

799
00:31:40,250 --> 00:31:37,799
kind of towards the end of it there was

800
00:31:42,830 --> 00:31:40,260
a parapsychologist named Hans Holzer who

801
00:31:44,269 --> 00:31:42,840
was uh a big big Ghost Hunter he was

802
00:31:46,430 --> 00:31:44,279
kind of the Nick Redfern of the day he

803
00:31:48,590 --> 00:31:46,440
was just very prolific and just churned

804
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:48,600
out books on any

805
00:31:55,610 --> 00:31:51,840
any subject matter relating to it

806
00:31:56,930 --> 00:31:55,620
um he also premiered in a show I think I

807
00:31:57,950 --> 00:31:56,940
think it was a British show and it was

808
00:32:00,409 --> 00:31:57,960
called

809
00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:00,419
ghost hunters or maybe it was just ghost

810
00:32:04,909 --> 00:32:03,000
hunter creative yeah so that kind of

811
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:04,919
predated the TAPS Ghost Hunters that

812
00:32:08,990 --> 00:32:06,480
came later on sci-fi

813
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:09,000
yeah and so where where so during this

814
00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:10,320
period like where are people hearing

815
00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:11,460
about this stuff are they hearing about

816
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:13,140
it in newspapers I bet there's like

817
00:32:18,409 --> 00:32:15,600
radio shows going on with it as well um

818
00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:18,419
radio shows I'm assuming um trashy

819
00:32:22,370 --> 00:32:21,240
paperbacks and airports is a good spot

820
00:32:24,710 --> 00:32:22,380
for those because they were churning out

821
00:32:27,289 --> 00:32:24,720
books this entire time yeah like Pulp

822
00:32:28,789 --> 00:32:27,299
books yes yeah I mean Amazing Stories

823
00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:28,799
type stuff a whole bunch of them over

824
00:32:30,169 --> 00:32:29,460
here

825
00:32:34,730 --> 00:32:30,179
um

826
00:32:36,289 --> 00:32:34,740
came out in the 70s and they they

827
00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:36,299
tackled ghosts quite a few times in

828
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:37,679
first psychology

829
00:32:42,169 --> 00:32:39,840
and then we kind of start getting into

830
00:32:44,330 --> 00:32:42,179
the modern era

831
00:32:45,169 --> 00:32:44,340
um but before that oh yeah I want to go

832
00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:45,179
over

833
00:32:47,630 --> 00:32:45,840
um

834
00:32:50,510 --> 00:32:47,640
what is it called ITC spirit

835
00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:50,520
communication methods and kind of the

836
00:32:54,649 --> 00:32:52,980
the broken technologies that people use

837
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,659
now

838
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:56,640
um we're all familiar with the spirit

839
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,559
box right

840
00:33:02,930 --> 00:33:01,200
the kind of broken radio it's it's got

841
00:33:06,769 --> 00:33:02,940
to explain this to me like I'm five

842
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:06,779
years old radio which uh The Sweep

843
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:09,360
function is broken to continuous and it

844
00:33:16,730 --> 00:33:13,279
continuously scans the am band okay

845
00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:16,740
and then you um you ask questions you

846
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,480
want to do that again for audience

847
00:33:23,630 --> 00:33:20,720
members

848
00:33:25,310 --> 00:33:23,640
it comes just like that look it up

849
00:33:27,289 --> 00:33:25,320
um but it's it's really just scanning

850
00:33:30,889 --> 00:33:27,299
every channel on the am band and okay

851
00:33:32,810 --> 00:33:30,899
ask questions to the air and it

852
00:33:34,430 --> 00:33:32,820
I mean you hear what you want under that

853
00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:34,440
thing it's it's Apple it's like a Ouija

854
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:37,080
board but for the radio yeah it's

855
00:33:42,769 --> 00:33:39,360
playing an album backwards yeah yeah

856
00:33:44,029 --> 00:33:42,779
exactly so before that the kind of

857
00:33:46,250 --> 00:33:44,039
predecessor of that was called the

858
00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:46,260
spiracom it was a he was designed in

859
00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:48,360
around 1980 there was there was multiple

860
00:33:53,389 --> 00:33:49,860
versions of this

861
00:33:55,009 --> 00:33:53,399
it was an overly complicated radio that

862
00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:55,019
would take radio waves and generate them

863
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:57,720
into 13 tones

864
00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:00,000
um and the the Creator William O'Neill

865
00:34:03,889 --> 00:34:01,740
there are several recordings of him

866
00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:03,899
operating this and communicating with a

867
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:07,679
uh a real dead doctor named Dr Mueller

868
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:10,399
uh and it's it's this kind of like

869
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:13,020
auto-tuned sounding voice but in every

870
00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:16,820
video you see he's got his back turned

871
00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:19,080
there's only I think six or seven videos

872
00:34:21,889 --> 00:34:20,040
in this where he's having this

873
00:34:24,109 --> 00:34:21,899
conversation and one thing you'll notice

874
00:34:26,329 --> 00:34:24,119
about aside from him you know hiding

875
00:34:30,889 --> 00:34:26,339
behind his back is that

876
00:34:33,409 --> 00:34:30,899
he and Dr Mueller's voices never overlap

877
00:34:36,970 --> 00:34:33,419
um and it also turned out that he was a

878
00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:36,980
semi-professional ventriloquist

879
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:39,720
convenient but I mean that did kind of

880
00:34:43,970 --> 00:34:42,000
Spur off the Frank's box or the Spirit

881
00:34:46,490 --> 00:34:43,980
box which I described later which is

882
00:34:48,589 --> 00:34:46,500
used in TV shows today

883
00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:48,599
um among among other things and another

884
00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:50,820
big one is EVP

885
00:34:58,370 --> 00:34:52,080
that

886
00:35:01,510 --> 00:34:58,380
1941 I think is the first recorded uh

887
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:01,520
there's a photographer named attilivon

888
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:04,320
Saleh I'm not sure how to pronounce that

889
00:35:09,650 --> 00:35:06,720
that was originally trained to

890
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:09,660
um record them on 78 records but they

891
00:35:12,710 --> 00:35:11,160
switched to reel to real and reel to

892
00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:12,720
real is one that started kicking off

893
00:35:17,329 --> 00:35:15,180
there was also a Swedish painter who was

894
00:35:19,849 --> 00:35:17,339
recording bird songs and thought he

895
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:19,859
heard a dead loved one and that's been

896
00:35:25,310 --> 00:35:22,560
going on since there have been uh EVP

897
00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:25,320
foundations and groups formed and

898
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:27,540
started and disbanded and new groups

899
00:35:32,089 --> 00:35:30,300
much like UFO groups do that's a big one

900
00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:32,099
and that's another process that's used

901
00:35:36,829 --> 00:35:34,020
to this day

902
00:35:38,569 --> 00:35:36,839
um and it's also another uh another

903
00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:38,579
thing that could be explained by

904
00:35:44,210 --> 00:35:41,820
apophenia essentially paradolia audio

905
00:35:46,609 --> 00:35:44,220
paradolia you um

906
00:35:49,310 --> 00:35:46,619
you're just you're making patterns out

907
00:35:51,950 --> 00:35:49,320
of Randomness right and and this goes

908
00:35:53,810 --> 00:35:51,960
back so far probably back to the point

909
00:35:56,510 --> 00:35:53,820
when humans sort of gain this what we

910
00:35:58,130 --> 00:35:56,520
call Consciousness right because for

911
00:36:00,290 --> 00:35:58,140
most of human history it was things as

912
00:36:02,150 --> 00:36:00,300
simple as the direction that the birds

913
00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:02,160
were flying would be interpreted through

914
00:36:07,550 --> 00:36:04,680
a you know a spiritual or religious uh

915
00:36:10,010 --> 00:36:07,560
lens and it made me think when you

916
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:10,020
mentioned the radio thing like J.R.R

917
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,200
Tolkien The Ants in Lord of the Rings

918
00:36:18,829 --> 00:36:15,359
um they make their voices very deep in

919
00:36:20,990 --> 00:36:18,839
the uh movies but in the books they are

920
00:36:24,589 --> 00:36:21,000
very very high pitched and that's

921
00:36:26,270 --> 00:36:24,599
because it is the sound of what in the

922
00:36:28,250 --> 00:36:26,280
Middle Ages were called talking trees

923
00:36:30,130 --> 00:36:28,260
trees that would rub together in the

924
00:36:33,050 --> 00:36:30,140
wind and they'd make squeaking sounds

925
00:36:36,170 --> 00:36:33,060
and you know there's a bunch of those uh

926
00:36:38,990 --> 00:36:36,180
in the forest uh at my farm and they do

927
00:36:41,569 --> 00:36:39,000
produce intonations that sometimes sound

928
00:36:43,609 --> 00:36:41,579
like someone's Voice or something and so

929
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:43,619
it's no surprise to me but there's this

930
00:36:48,109 --> 00:36:45,839
really long Trend and now there's this

931
00:36:49,310 --> 00:36:48,119
emerging technology and people are

932
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:49,320
hearing

933
00:36:54,050 --> 00:36:52,560
Humanity within the technology in the

934
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:54,060
same way that they've interpreted

935
00:36:57,770 --> 00:36:56,160
Consciousness Within These external

936
00:37:01,010 --> 00:36:57,780
things like from the beginning of time

937
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:01,020
right yeah we've always been trying to

938
00:37:05,210 --> 00:37:02,640
do this I mean we also do it for

939
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:05,220
definitory purposes yeah think about

940
00:37:10,670 --> 00:37:08,160
reading tea leaves or entrails trying to

941
00:37:13,069 --> 00:37:10,680
find patterns in different things and

942
00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:13,079
use that to sort of right either predict

943
00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:15,180
the future or gain insight into

944
00:37:18,770 --> 00:37:16,740
something that's occurring in our lives

945
00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:18,780
like this is such a deeply human thing

946
00:37:22,670 --> 00:37:20,280
to do to look for these kinds of

947
00:37:25,069 --> 00:37:22,680
patterns and Communications and to what

948
00:37:27,710 --> 00:37:25,079
extent is it really the foundation of

949
00:37:29,870 --> 00:37:27,720
everything we have around us because the

950
00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:29,880
knowledge of seeing the patterns in the

951
00:37:35,870 --> 00:37:33,300
skies led to uh at least in part the

952
00:37:38,930 --> 00:37:35,880
structured development of Agriculture

953
00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:38,940
which enabled the surplus of foods food

954
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,260
and things like that and so there

955
00:37:45,770 --> 00:37:42,720
actually are these patterns that we find

956
00:37:46,730 --> 00:37:45,780
and so it's not cool yeah it's wild I

957
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:46,740
always wondered if that like our

958
00:37:51,349 --> 00:37:48,839
proclivity towards patterns is kind of

959
00:37:54,109 --> 00:37:51,359
what was Genesis of both language and

960
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:54,119
music too those are just auditory

961
00:37:58,190 --> 00:37:56,480
patterns that we've kind of created

962
00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:58,200
right

963
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,960
so anyway we're we're in about the 70s

964
00:38:04,970 --> 00:38:02,400
80s period

965
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:04,980
um this is about the time that uh Dr

966
00:38:09,770 --> 00:38:07,680
Persinger started his work with the uh

967
00:38:11,569 --> 00:38:09,780
with EMF and the god helmet and stuff

968
00:38:13,310 --> 00:38:11,579
and Campbell you said you've read a

969
00:38:13,970 --> 00:38:13,320
little bit of that lately can you kind

970
00:38:25,730 --> 00:38:13,980
of

971
00:38:29,150 --> 00:38:25,740
Ontario and he was Canadian American and

972
00:38:32,030 --> 00:38:29,160
he became quite interested in electrical

973
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:32,040
fields and how those fields May uh

974
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:35,640
influence Cuban uh perception subjective

975
00:38:39,770 --> 00:38:37,440
experience and things like that he

976
00:38:41,870 --> 00:38:39,780
produced a substantial body of

977
00:38:44,569 --> 00:38:41,880
peer-reviewed published papers that

978
00:38:46,569 --> 00:38:44,579
indicated that there was a strong link

979
00:38:49,310 --> 00:38:46,579
there that had some substance however

980
00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:49,320
there has been a substantial uh

981
00:38:54,530 --> 00:38:51,300
significant issue in replicating those

982
00:38:56,930 --> 00:38:54,540
studies up to uh today there's only one

983
00:39:00,290 --> 00:38:56,940
published study that claims a successful

984
00:39:02,329 --> 00:39:00,300
replication in 2015 and that the it

985
00:39:04,970 --> 00:39:02,339
though the journal is peer-reviewed it

986
00:39:08,810 --> 00:39:04,980
is uh produced by a Incorporated company

987
00:39:11,450 --> 00:39:08,820
that is involved in monetizing uh

988
00:39:12,770 --> 00:39:11,460
something related to Consciousness so

989
00:39:14,690 --> 00:39:12,780
there's some kind of like slight

990
00:39:16,609 --> 00:39:14,700
question there the most comprehensive

991
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:16,619
study back in 2004 I believe was

992
00:39:21,290 --> 00:39:18,960
published in nature and though it was

993
00:39:24,530 --> 00:39:21,300
not exact to Dr pursinger's original

994
00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:24,540
designs it was unable to replicate any

995
00:39:28,430 --> 00:39:26,040
of the effects and they suggested that's

996
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:28,440
a suggestibility was probably the

997
00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:30,720
biggest factor in his results which I

998
00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:33,119
guess I have not yet described

999
00:39:37,490 --> 00:39:35,880
yeah do you want to describe the uh like

1000
00:39:39,470 --> 00:39:37,500
kind of what the whole God helmet thing

1001
00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:39,480
was Nick yeah it was essentially trying

1002
00:39:44,810 --> 00:39:42,660
to induce uh the experiences of a

1003
00:39:46,190 --> 00:39:44,820
haunting with electromagnetic fields in

1004
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:46,200
people right like

1005
00:39:51,470 --> 00:39:48,240
feeling a presence in the room or even

1006
00:39:55,490 --> 00:39:51,480
visual hallucinations was kind of the

1007
00:39:57,829 --> 00:39:55,500
objective of this now that that concept

1008
00:39:59,930 --> 00:39:57,839
um was popular in the parapsychology

1009
00:40:02,450 --> 00:39:59,940
realm and then

1010
00:40:04,490 --> 00:40:02,460
um around that time you start seeing

1011
00:40:06,650 --> 00:40:04,500
another parapsychologist figure show up

1012
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:06,660
on TV shows like sightings Unsolved

1013
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:08,160
Mysteries and things like that named Dr

1014
00:40:14,930 --> 00:40:11,520
William roll he investigated the uh

1015
00:40:17,450 --> 00:40:14,940
the Columbus portugals uh a lot kind of

1016
00:40:18,290 --> 00:40:17,460
against James Randy um and I think

1017
00:40:21,290 --> 00:40:18,300
there's

1018
00:40:22,970 --> 00:40:21,300
the C ford Poltergeist a couple of a

1019
00:40:26,329 --> 00:40:22,980
couple of big name

1020
00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:26,339
um Poltergeist cases but he starts

1021
00:40:30,050 --> 00:40:27,660
getting

1022
00:40:31,790 --> 00:40:30,060
um kind of dragged into these TV shows

1023
00:40:34,010 --> 00:40:31,800
where he's coming in and he's doing that

1024
00:40:37,310 --> 00:40:34,020
parapsychological method where he's

1025
00:40:40,670 --> 00:40:37,320
getting Baseline readings uh

1026
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:40,680
specifically looking for EMF and and

1027
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:43,920
seismic seismograph readings

1028
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:46,079
um temperature readings barometer all

1029
00:40:50,630 --> 00:40:47,280
these kinds of things

1030
00:40:52,730 --> 00:40:50,640
but since this is the mid 80s by this

1031
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:52,740
point these producers of these TV shows

1032
00:40:58,910 --> 00:40:55,440
have seen Poltergeist in 1982 and

1033
00:41:00,770 --> 00:40:58,920
Ghostbusters in 1984. which feature

1034
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:00,780
paranormal investigators waving

1035
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:03,240
technology around like tricorders from

1036
00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:04,560
Star Trek

1037
00:41:10,250 --> 00:41:07,140
they take that kind of visual aesthetic

1038
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:10,260
and and push it hard so Dr rolls coming

1039
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:12,960
in to investigate like the Queen Mary

1040
00:41:16,250 --> 00:41:14,880
and all these hauntings on these TV

1041
00:41:18,050 --> 00:41:16,260
shows he's bringing in all of his

1042
00:41:20,230 --> 00:41:18,060
equipment because it looks great

1043
00:41:23,270 --> 00:41:20,240
and this is kind of the impetus of

1044
00:41:25,550 --> 00:41:23,280
investigating waving around these EMF

1045
00:41:28,069 --> 00:41:25,560
leaders now he was looking for

1046
00:41:30,650 --> 00:41:28,079
High readings of EMF that are maybe

1047
00:41:32,750 --> 00:41:30,660
causing people to experience hauntings

1048
00:41:35,150 --> 00:41:32,760
like passengers were where passenger's

1049
00:41:37,609 --> 00:41:35,160
work was suggesting however that didn't

1050
00:41:40,670 --> 00:41:37,619
translate to the audiences very well at

1051
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:40,680
the time yeah yeah anymore he's reading

1052
00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:43,280
for these ghost signatures or

1053
00:41:48,290 --> 00:41:45,300
psychotronic energy I think is what they

1054
00:41:51,170 --> 00:41:48,300
call it in um in Poltergeist so they're

1055
00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:51,180
they're picking up or or uh I think they

1056
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:54,060
just call it PK uh like psychokinesis um

1057
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:56,160
kind of like Duke in Ghostbusters

1058
00:41:59,569 --> 00:41:57,599
yeah you're you're drawing the

1059
00:42:01,010 --> 00:41:59,579
distinction right now what I was which

1060
00:42:02,690 --> 00:42:01,020
is what I was going to ask about which

1061
00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:02,700
is when you bring in these measurements

1062
00:42:08,210 --> 00:42:05,599
how do you draw the distinction between

1063
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:08,220
we are measuring something and it's

1064
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,079
influencing the human mind to believe

1065
00:42:14,569 --> 00:42:12,480
it's having an experience versus we are

1066
00:42:18,050 --> 00:42:14,579
measuring something and it's actually a

1067
00:42:20,210 --> 00:42:18,060
ghost or EVP or whatever but it's

1068
00:42:21,410 --> 00:42:20,220
occurring outside of the human mind it's

1069
00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:21,420
not something that's being mentally

1070
00:42:26,210 --> 00:42:23,940
constructed right that distinction was I

1071
00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:26,220
think lost on a lot of the audiences and

1072
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:27,780
uh there were a lot of producers who

1073
00:42:31,609 --> 00:42:29,280
didn't care they just thought it looked

1074
00:42:33,470 --> 00:42:31,619
cool that was it reminds me

1075
00:42:34,970 --> 00:42:33,480
um and I think look we definitely have

1076
00:42:37,130 --> 00:42:34,980
another show here to do about

1077
00:42:38,930 --> 00:42:37,140
parapsychology and JB Ryan but it

1078
00:42:41,329 --> 00:42:38,940
reminds me a lot of JB Ryan drawing the

1079
00:42:45,290 --> 00:42:41,339
distinction between ESP and ghosts where

1080
00:42:47,329 --> 00:42:45,300
people were creating like ESP like

1081
00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:47,339
the discussion I I can just remember

1082
00:42:50,450 --> 00:42:49,619
from that book by Stacy horn was really

1083
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:50,460
about

1084
00:42:55,370 --> 00:42:53,280
If ghosts were something that existed

1085
00:42:57,410 --> 00:42:55,380
outside of people's minds or if they

1086
00:42:59,210 --> 00:42:57,420
were a psychological phenomenon that

1087
00:43:00,770 --> 00:42:59,220
were occurring in distressed and

1088
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:00,780
traumatized people that could be like

1089
00:43:04,430 --> 00:43:03,359
manifested right that's and this is this

1090
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:04,440
is that period that I was talking about

1091
00:43:08,990 --> 00:43:06,960
earlier where these Concepts they they

1092
00:43:11,809 --> 00:43:09,000
interweave and separate and interweave

1093
00:43:13,849 --> 00:43:11,819
and separate but it's all kind of the

1094
00:43:17,150 --> 00:43:13,859
same the same methods the same ideas

1095
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,160
just with new technology every every

1096
00:43:21,530 --> 00:43:19,200
couple decades or so

1097
00:43:24,170 --> 00:43:21,540
yeah the Technologies trotted out as a

1098
00:43:27,069 --> 00:43:24,180
way to legitimize it I think yeah or as

1099
00:43:30,770 --> 00:43:27,079
a way to sort of say hey there's

1100
00:43:32,750 --> 00:43:30,780
objective third part is eg instruments

1101
00:43:34,849 --> 00:43:32,760
of some kind that can register and

1102
00:43:36,589 --> 00:43:34,859
measure these events therefore they are

1103
00:43:40,250 --> 00:43:36,599
not just something that's being

1104
00:43:43,010 --> 00:43:40,260
hallucinated or made up right and it

1105
00:43:45,950 --> 00:43:43,020
kind of sells these magical ideas with a

1106
00:43:48,290 --> 00:43:45,960
scientific sounding language on top of

1107
00:43:50,329 --> 00:43:48,300
it and that's what kind of brings us

1108
00:43:52,190 --> 00:43:50,339
into current ghost hunting as we know

1109
00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:52,200
today through these TV shows like Ghost

1110
00:43:57,530 --> 00:43:54,180
Hunters Ghost Adventures or even

1111
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:57,540
Skinwalker Ranch a lot of technology is

1112
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:00,000
used and a lot of sciency language is

1113
00:44:05,990 --> 00:44:02,880
used though the uh the correlations are

1114
00:44:07,609 --> 00:44:06,000
never demonstrated and the evidence that

1115
00:44:09,109 --> 00:44:07,619
they collect at the end of all of these

1116
00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:09,119
shows and this has been going on you

1117
00:44:15,170 --> 00:44:12,240
know for decades it's all ambiguous it's

1118
00:44:17,510 --> 00:44:15,180
all but what if so you watch the next

1119
00:44:19,450 --> 00:44:17,520
episode right all I'm making are things

1120
00:44:22,089 --> 00:44:19,460
using broken technology or technology

1121
00:44:24,770 --> 00:44:22,099
outside of its intended purpose

1122
00:44:25,849 --> 00:44:24,780
recording anomalous readings you don't

1123
00:44:28,370 --> 00:44:25,859
even know if you're using these

1124
00:44:30,290 --> 00:44:28,380
especially these EMF meters you're not

1125
00:44:32,510 --> 00:44:30,300
supposed to move them around and maybe

1126
00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:32,520
maybe the K2 the really cheap one you

1127
00:44:36,170 --> 00:44:35,520
can wave that around it's one access but

1128
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:36,180
um

1129
00:44:39,650 --> 00:44:38,400
you're not supposed to so when you when

1130
00:44:40,550 --> 00:44:39,660
you've got a bunch of candy because if

1131
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:40,560
you're moving them around you're

1132
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:42,000
actually moving them through different

1133
00:44:45,530 --> 00:44:43,920
waves and patterns right instead of

1134
00:44:47,809 --> 00:44:45,540
capturing the movement of the Waves

1135
00:44:52,670 --> 00:44:47,819
around the device right but these things

1136
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:52,680
all collect data and data is

1137
00:44:58,190 --> 00:44:55,040
evidence right

1138
00:45:00,410 --> 00:44:58,200
data data confers proof and scientific

1139
00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:00,420
validity sure without any kind of causal

1140
00:45:04,670 --> 00:45:03,060
wind being just demonstrated so yeah you

1141
00:45:08,030 --> 00:45:04,680
basically have you yeah broken

1142
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:08,040
technology ambiguous answers and

1143
00:45:12,349 --> 00:45:10,800
it still could be turning next week so

1144
00:45:14,329 --> 00:45:12,359
that's kind of where we are now and I

1145
00:45:16,130 --> 00:45:14,339
noticed that it's um I don't personally

1146
00:45:18,290 --> 00:45:16,140
watch Skinwalker Ranch but I've I've

1147
00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:18,300
seen a lot of clips and they seem to be

1148
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:20,160
employing both the same technology and

1149
00:45:25,309 --> 00:45:22,560
the same kind of gimmicks that you see

1150
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:25,319
in these TV shows night vision sounds

1151
00:45:30,109 --> 00:45:27,599
off camera saying what was that and then

1152
00:45:34,430 --> 00:45:30,119
you know Wiki readings on your whatever

1153
00:45:37,730 --> 00:45:34,440
meter at the end never establishing how

1154
00:45:40,490 --> 00:45:37,740
this is any kind of like useful data or

1155
00:45:42,410 --> 00:45:40,500
specifically evidence of anything

1156
00:45:43,970 --> 00:45:42,420
you know what I mean but that's where we

1157
00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:43,980
are now and that I think that that's

1158
00:45:48,050 --> 00:45:45,900
where it's going to continue people have

1159
00:45:49,730 --> 00:45:48,060
obviously Incorporated new forms of

1160
00:45:51,530 --> 00:45:49,740
strange technology there's the kind of

1161
00:45:53,690 --> 00:45:51,540
like motion capture cameras that you

1162
00:45:56,569 --> 00:45:53,700
have on Xbox connects that a lot of

1163
00:45:58,250 --> 00:45:56,579
Ghostbusters ghost hunters are using now

1164
00:46:01,130 --> 00:45:58,260
um again technology outside of its

1165
00:46:03,829 --> 00:46:01,140
intended purpose and funny funny

1166
00:46:05,930 --> 00:46:03,839
readings off of that that brings us up

1167
00:46:08,930 --> 00:46:05,940
to date with ghosts and ghost hunting

1168
00:46:11,930 --> 00:46:08,940
and the uh kind of silly technology that

1169
00:46:15,290 --> 00:46:11,940
was what's the uh what's the Ghost

1170
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:15,300
Hunter perception of including human

1171
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:18,000
instruments in this space now so like

1172
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:21,119
having mediums involved in ghost hunting

1173
00:46:24,490 --> 00:46:23,400
is that sort of passe at this point when

1174
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:24,500
we have

1175
00:46:31,309 --> 00:46:29,040
Electronics I there's different camps

1176
00:46:32,990 --> 00:46:31,319
um the the self-proclaimed scientific

1177
00:46:35,150 --> 00:46:33,000
Ghost Hunters of the day these are the

1178
00:46:38,270 --> 00:46:35,160
like the Taps folks you know like 20

1179
00:46:40,130 --> 00:46:38,280
years ago or so uh excluded mediums and

1180
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:40,140
dousing rods and these kinds of things

1181
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:42,960
because they weren't scientific not that

1182
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:44,640
what they were doing was

1183
00:46:48,410 --> 00:46:46,560
um but I from what I've seen I think

1184
00:46:51,650 --> 00:46:48,420
mediums are kind of making a comeback

1185
00:46:53,329 --> 00:46:51,660
now in the 80s it was it was fine to use

1186
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:53,339
a medium and they would actually

1187
00:46:58,910 --> 00:46:56,640
um often have the mediums and the uh the

1188
00:47:00,770 --> 00:46:58,920
team with the gadgets do separate

1189
00:47:03,650 --> 00:47:00,780
investigations and then kind of match

1190
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:03,660
them up as if uh they could corroborate

1191
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:04,560
each other

1192
00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:06,540
that's pretty cool but a lot of the

1193
00:47:09,170 --> 00:47:07,980
mediums would go in there doing hot

1194
00:47:13,490 --> 00:47:09,180
readings they would look up these

1195
00:47:15,710 --> 00:47:13,500
properties and previous deaths uh deaths

1196
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:15,720
on the property can you imagine that I

1197
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:17,760
mean name a spot in America where

1198
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:19,760
someone hasn't died

1199
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:23,040
you know you know and I'm gonna say I'm

1200
00:47:27,650 --> 00:47:24,480
gonna bring up a hot button political

1201
00:47:28,849 --> 00:47:27,660
thing which is I also am super now that

1202
00:47:30,589 --> 00:47:28,859
I'm just thinking about it and I'm

1203
00:47:32,210 --> 00:47:30,599
totally spitballing here I'm about to

1204
00:47:33,770 --> 00:47:32,220
say things I'm not even sure I agree

1205
00:47:34,690 --> 00:47:33,780
with they're just gonna come out of my

1206
00:47:38,030 --> 00:47:34,700
brain

1207
00:47:39,290 --> 00:47:38,040
but like I'm super fascinated by the

1208
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:39,300
notion of this being like a very

1209
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:42,480
gendered thing too that like that women

1210
00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:44,640
you know like women's intuition and

1211
00:47:48,290 --> 00:47:46,319
being able to tap into these Cosmic

1212
00:47:49,970 --> 00:47:48,300
energies and forces like this is why you

1213
00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:49,980
see generally women mediums the

1214
00:47:54,589 --> 00:47:52,140
exception of course Being John Edwards

1215
00:47:55,730 --> 00:47:54,599
not the presidential candidate but the

1216
00:48:00,170 --> 00:47:55,740
other one

1217
00:48:03,349 --> 00:48:00,180
um but um but then when you see you sort

1218
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:03,359
of see this like masculinization I guess

1219
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:05,040
I don't know what else to say about

1220
00:48:08,750 --> 00:48:06,960
ghost hunting when they come in with

1221
00:48:10,670 --> 00:48:08,760
instruments because then it's logical

1222
00:48:13,010 --> 00:48:10,680
and rational and reasonable and it takes

1223
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:13,020
the sort of emotional charge or punch

1224
00:48:16,250 --> 00:48:15,119
out of the pursuit of talking to the

1225
00:48:19,069 --> 00:48:16,260
dead

1226
00:48:20,870 --> 00:48:19,079
um I there's a good anyone paying

1227
00:48:22,670 --> 00:48:20,880
attention who's like a junior doing

1228
00:48:25,730 --> 00:48:22,680
gender studies there's your senior

1229
00:48:28,190 --> 00:48:25,740
thesis idea right about right about how

1230
00:48:30,589 --> 00:48:28,200
um gender uh politics shows up in

1231
00:48:32,930 --> 00:48:30,599
mediumship and ghost hunting but I'm

1232
00:48:34,849 --> 00:48:32,940
like nearly all of the uh the the

1233
00:48:36,770 --> 00:48:34,859
spiritualist leaders at the beginning of

1234
00:48:40,430 --> 00:48:36,780
spiritualism were women we're all women

1235
00:48:43,130 --> 00:48:40,440
yeah and uh yeah you see you see these

1236
00:48:45,050 --> 00:48:43,140
uh these these hard thinking logical

1237
00:48:46,970 --> 00:48:45,060
plumbers come in here and they're

1238
00:48:49,309 --> 00:48:46,980
suddenly excluding these these mediums

1239
00:48:51,589 --> 00:48:49,319
which are still even today I think like

1240
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:51,599
you said most typically women that's

1241
00:48:55,849 --> 00:48:53,520
quite interesting uh like and I'm

1242
00:48:59,510 --> 00:48:55,859
familiar with that through uh reading a

1243
00:49:01,849 --> 00:48:59,520
number of the Icelandic sagas where uh

1244
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:01,859
the practice of magic which was mostly

1245
00:49:05,809 --> 00:49:03,119
fortune telling but a variety of other

1246
00:49:07,970 --> 00:49:05,819
things sether it was considered a

1247
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:07,980
feminate and they were very sexist so

1248
00:49:12,410 --> 00:49:09,839
this is not a positive thing but it's

1249
00:49:15,650 --> 00:49:12,420
because it was not direct and physical

1250
00:49:19,130 --> 00:49:15,660
and so they saw it as being

1251
00:49:21,410 --> 00:49:19,140
um Insidious in a way and so it's quite

1252
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:21,420
interesting like you're describing that

1253
00:49:29,569 --> 00:49:25,040
once uh it becomes sort of like

1254
00:49:32,450 --> 00:49:29,579
modernized the most important abilities

1255
00:49:34,910 --> 00:49:32,460
end up being taken away from it while

1256
00:49:37,790 --> 00:49:34,920
the negative is sort of like left with

1257
00:49:39,770 --> 00:49:37,800
the cultural history there

1258
00:49:42,290 --> 00:49:39,780
um and and even the tool thing

1259
00:49:44,510 --> 00:49:42,300
um it reminds me that in the sagas the

1260
00:49:46,370 --> 00:49:44,520
mediums there would be like a process

1261
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,380
where everyone sit around they would

1262
00:49:51,710 --> 00:49:48,960
sing uh weirding songs to call the

1263
00:49:54,230 --> 00:49:51,720
weirding spirits the warden spirits and

1264
00:49:56,690 --> 00:49:54,240
then um they would have like tools uh

1265
00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:56,700
like a like a staff and stuff and it's

1266
00:50:02,390 --> 00:49:59,119
like how are these things somehow

1267
00:50:03,950 --> 00:50:02,400
transferring over time in this way uh

1268
00:50:07,130 --> 00:50:03,960
into the modern world where you have

1269
00:50:09,470 --> 00:50:07,140
your staff that you're waving around in

1270
00:50:11,630 --> 00:50:09,480
the magical place like it's like how is

1271
00:50:13,490 --> 00:50:11,640
this so deeply built into us it's uh

1272
00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:13,500
remarkable yeah we're still doing the

1273
00:50:21,130 --> 00:50:15,420
exact same thing just with an electronic

1274
00:50:25,970 --> 00:50:23,809
even since you know the very beginning

1275
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:25,980
of it it's really really I like that

1276
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:27,200
point you hit on

1277
00:50:32,569 --> 00:50:30,240
it it feels too like

1278
00:50:35,450 --> 00:50:32,579
I mean living as we are now in the year

1279
00:50:37,510 --> 00:50:35,460
of Our Lord 2022 like we're able to

1280
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:37,520
understand and recognize that our

1281
00:50:43,130 --> 00:50:40,800
environments are filled with

1282
00:50:46,809 --> 00:50:43,140
information when I say information I

1283
00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:46,819
mean like any sort of uh

1284
00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:49,980
light or sound or even material

1285
00:50:54,410 --> 00:50:52,140
experience that are outside the realm of

1286
00:50:56,510 --> 00:50:54,420
our senses being able to pick them up so

1287
00:50:58,490 --> 00:50:56,520
like infrared ultraviolet ultrasound

1288
00:50:59,329 --> 00:50:58,500
infrasound

1289
00:51:00,770 --> 00:50:59,339
um

1290
00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:00,780
etc etc

1291
00:51:07,790 --> 00:51:04,500
and it feels to me like it's not a long

1292
00:51:10,849 --> 00:51:07,800
bow to draw to suppose that there's huge

1293
00:51:12,829 --> 00:51:10,859
amounts of stuff whatever it may be

1294
00:51:15,290 --> 00:51:12,839
going on around us all the time that we

1295
00:51:15,950 --> 00:51:15,300
don't pick up on we don't perceive

1296
00:51:18,109 --> 00:51:15,960
um

1297
00:51:20,270 --> 00:51:18,119
and also that our brains are very very

1298
00:51:21,890 --> 00:51:20,280
good at filtering out information in our

1299
00:51:25,370 --> 00:51:21,900
environments so we're not overwhelmed

1300
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:25,380
and so like I I like ghost hunting in a

1301
00:51:30,410 --> 00:51:26,160
sense

1302
00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:30,420
being able to sort of siphon off

1303
00:51:34,730 --> 00:51:32,880
information from spaces and events that

1304
00:51:36,589 --> 00:51:34,740
like are outside our normal sensory

1305
00:51:38,270 --> 00:51:36,599
range of access

1306
00:51:40,549 --> 00:51:38,280
but it also feels like there's a lot of

1307
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:40,559
hucksterism in it too oh there are a lot

1308
00:51:44,569 --> 00:51:42,480
of like like lots of wishful thinking

1309
00:51:46,430 --> 00:51:44,579
it's exactly what we see in UFOs right

1310
00:51:49,010 --> 00:51:46,440
where yes there's really compelling

1311
00:51:52,010 --> 00:51:49,020
interesting anomalous cases but they

1312
00:51:53,809 --> 00:51:52,020
tend to be so dilute by woo-woo

1313
00:51:55,210 --> 00:51:53,819
that like you don't ever even get to

1314
00:51:57,470 --> 00:51:55,220
them

1315
00:51:59,210 --> 00:51:57,480
I like the idea of what you're

1316
00:52:01,970 --> 00:51:59,220
describing is essentially still that

1317
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:01,980
concept of The Ether that we're uh that

1318
00:52:06,650 --> 00:52:03,599
things are hiding from us from and we're

1319
00:52:08,750 --> 00:52:06,660
still trying to kind of penetrate

1320
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,760
yeah we're trying to part the veil yeah

1321
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:10,559
human beings have been obsessed with

1322
00:52:13,970 --> 00:52:12,480
that since time immemorial like every

1323
00:52:17,150 --> 00:52:13,980
religion every culture throughout

1324
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:17,160
history has had mystical Traditions that

1325
00:52:20,990 --> 00:52:18,900
are obsessed with basically

1326
00:52:23,210 --> 00:52:21,000
facing or engaging with or communing

1327
00:52:25,010 --> 00:52:23,220
with the Ultimate Reality the cosmic

1328
00:52:26,750 --> 00:52:25,020
Consciousness like what is behind the

1329
00:52:28,970 --> 00:52:26,760
veil

1330
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:28,980
um I want to call out a comment here

1331
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:31,200
from Brooke and streber so this is

1332
00:52:37,490 --> 00:52:35,280
Whitley's beloved uh dearly departed

1333
00:52:39,470 --> 00:52:37,500
wife said that after communion most of

1334
00:52:41,870 --> 00:52:39,480
the letters that people wrote mentioned

1335
00:52:44,270 --> 00:52:41,880
seeing aliens in the dead together on

1336
00:52:46,609 --> 00:52:44,280
ships interesting it's really

1337
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:46,619
interesting there are a lot of parallels

1338
00:52:51,410 --> 00:52:49,920
between like uh mediumship and like the

1339
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,420
contact D movement like we were talking

1340
00:52:56,089 --> 00:52:54,000
about last episode this channeling of

1341
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:56,099
beings from outside our realm to give us

1342
00:52:59,210 --> 00:52:57,119
uh

1343
00:53:01,010 --> 00:52:59,220
you know knowledge and messages but it

1344
00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:01,020
all ends up being things we already know

1345
00:53:05,329 --> 00:53:03,540
you know it really obvious things but

1346
00:53:08,030 --> 00:53:05,339
it's still that like uh that

1347
00:53:10,849 --> 00:53:08,040
communicating over some impenerable or

1348
00:53:14,510 --> 00:53:10,859
impenetrable distance kind of like these

1349
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:14,520
uh these contactees channeling I feel

1350
00:53:18,349 --> 00:53:16,619
like they all kind of have similar uh

1351
00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:18,359
origin points dating back to that kind

1352
00:53:27,490 --> 00:53:22,380
of mixing of mesmerism and uh what was

1353
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:30,589
yeah we also have Edward Casey around

1354
00:53:36,170 --> 00:53:32,880
this time as well the Sleeping Prophet

1355
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:36,180
who would like sleep and channel notes

1356
00:53:40,910 --> 00:53:38,400
and he set up you know basically like

1357
00:53:43,130 --> 00:53:40,920
healing Retreats for people

1358
00:53:46,010 --> 00:53:43,140
um you know and then we also have we

1359
00:53:47,690 --> 00:53:46,020
have Wilhelm Reich right in the 30s 40s

1360
00:53:49,549 --> 00:53:47,700
50s whatever

1361
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:49,559
um in the Oregon Rays this sort of

1362
00:53:53,329 --> 00:53:51,599
sexual repression I keep thinking about

1363
00:53:54,349 --> 00:53:53,339
sexual repression on this subject too

1364
00:53:54,890 --> 00:53:54,359
because

1365
00:53:57,170 --> 00:53:54,900
um

1366
00:53:58,849 --> 00:53:57,180
again coming back to this sort of gender

1367
00:54:01,370 --> 00:53:58,859
politics of this a lot of the

1368
00:54:03,290 --> 00:54:01,380
recountments of mediums and I just

1369
00:54:04,910 --> 00:54:03,300
remember this again it's top of mind

1370
00:54:06,290 --> 00:54:04,920
because I just read this book is talking

1371
00:54:09,410 --> 00:54:06,300
about the mediums who had basically

1372
00:54:11,089 --> 00:54:09,420
appear naked or partly nude like when

1373
00:54:13,609 --> 00:54:11,099
they were doing this sort of table

1374
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:13,619
wrapping or channeling

1375
00:54:17,089 --> 00:54:14,400
um

1376
00:54:19,790 --> 00:54:17,099
and I mean this is a period of time when

1377
00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:19,800
uh I mean arguably culture was far less

1378
00:54:24,349 --> 00:54:22,079
permissive than it is now so in a lot of

1379
00:54:26,270 --> 00:54:24,359
ways I think it was also

1380
00:54:28,250 --> 00:54:26,280
um some of this may be very much a

1381
00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:28,260
manifestation of like a deeply repressed

1382
00:54:33,650 --> 00:54:31,380
Society too

1383
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:33,660
yeah absolutely I think what's what's

1384
00:54:36,890 --> 00:54:35,520
really interesting and um we kind of

1385
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:36,900
touched on it before is like the

1386
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:39,599
practices though they've like kind of

1387
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:42,240
superficially changed we're all doing

1388
00:54:45,650 --> 00:54:44,400
the same thing like like ample said

1389
00:54:47,809 --> 00:54:45,660
waving sticks in the air and

1390
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:47,819
communicating I think it's interesting

1391
00:54:52,210 --> 00:54:49,920
now especially because it's trying to be

1392
00:54:55,730 --> 00:54:52,220
presented as such a uh

1393
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:55,740
scientific Endeavor when in reality it's

1394
00:55:00,049 --> 00:54:58,079
a ritual it's a religious ritual

1395
00:55:02,270 --> 00:55:00,059
basically

1396
00:55:04,609 --> 00:55:02,280
um which started with Santa's were

1397
00:55:06,290 --> 00:55:04,619
obviously very ritualistic but now you

1398
00:55:08,410 --> 00:55:06,300
know carrying it over you get the guys

1399
00:55:10,970 --> 00:55:08,420
in their goatees and they're matching uh

1400
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:10,980
shirts and their EMF meters but it's

1401
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:13,200
still the same thing they are all doing

1402
00:55:18,589 --> 00:55:17,040
the same motions and essentially uh

1403
00:55:22,609 --> 00:55:18,599
looking for Souls

1404
00:55:26,809 --> 00:55:25,250
I just read this book by Bernardo Castro

1405
00:55:29,210 --> 00:55:26,819
and I've talked about it on the stream a

1406
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:29,220
couple times but he Bernardo costructs a

1407
00:55:32,630 --> 00:55:30,480
lot on like non-duality and

1408
00:55:34,849 --> 00:55:32,640
Consciousness and I think it's called an

1409
00:55:38,329 --> 00:55:34,859
anomalous phenomena and he basically

1410
00:55:40,309 --> 00:55:38,339
talks about the necessity of

1411
00:55:42,530 --> 00:55:40,319
um developing like new logical

1412
00:55:45,049 --> 00:55:42,540
structures to talk about things outside

1413
00:55:46,730 --> 00:55:45,059
hard realist interpretations of reality

1414
00:55:48,650 --> 00:55:46,740
because like quantum physics has shown

1415
00:55:50,750 --> 00:55:48,660
us that hard realism is probably not

1416
00:55:52,250 --> 00:55:50,760
actually a thing like for all intents

1417
00:55:55,790 --> 00:55:52,260
and purposes we have to act as if hard

1418
00:55:58,190 --> 00:55:55,800
realism is but that a quantoscale it's

1419
00:55:59,870 --> 00:55:58,200
soft realism and idealism is probably

1420
00:56:01,670 --> 00:55:59,880
the name of the game but one of the

1421
00:56:03,589 --> 00:56:01,680
things he talks about very briefly in

1422
00:56:05,630 --> 00:56:03,599
this book is that when you go to

1423
00:56:07,370 --> 00:56:05,640
basically any other traditional culture

1424
00:56:10,010 --> 00:56:07,380
so like anything that's not like Western

1425
00:56:12,589 --> 00:56:10,020
Scientific empiricism

1426
00:56:15,829 --> 00:56:12,599
um there is not a distinction drawn

1427
00:56:18,049 --> 00:56:15,839
between these kind of imaginal or

1428
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:18,059
metaphorical or symbolic encounters that

1429
00:56:23,390 --> 00:56:21,599
people have and reality like that if you

1430
00:56:25,609 --> 00:56:23,400
talk to you know if you talk to like a

1431
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:25,619
shaman on the steps in Central Asia

1432
00:56:29,510 --> 00:56:27,599
their response will be like these are

1433
00:56:31,609 --> 00:56:29,520
the same things like the ritual to talk

1434
00:56:33,410 --> 00:56:31,619
to a ghost is the same as if you and I

1435
00:56:35,210 --> 00:56:33,420
were talking it's just in sort of a it's

1436
00:56:38,270 --> 00:56:35,220
in an imaginal space rather than a

1437
00:56:40,730 --> 00:56:38,280
material or a literal or physical space

1438
00:56:42,890 --> 00:56:40,740
um and I wonder too just how much of

1439
00:56:45,410 --> 00:56:42,900
this kind of contemporary ghost hunting

1440
00:56:46,970 --> 00:56:45,420
behavior of waving around instruments

1441
00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:46,980
and trying to take measurements and

1442
00:56:50,809 --> 00:56:49,380
reconcile these experiences against like

1443
00:56:52,609 --> 00:56:50,819
what we would consider scientific

1444
00:56:55,190 --> 00:56:52,619
standards of evidence

1445
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:55,200
if it's basically like a ultimately like

1446
00:56:59,630 --> 00:56:57,599
a Fool's errand because it exists so

1447
00:57:01,130 --> 00:56:59,640
outside that Paradigm like you can't

1448
00:57:02,750 --> 00:57:01,140
reconcile it with that sort of

1449
00:57:04,970 --> 00:57:02,760
interpretation or framework or

1450
00:57:05,930 --> 00:57:04,980
validation that's an interesting

1451
00:57:07,549 --> 00:57:05,940
question

1452
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:07,559
um you're bringing to mind some things

1453
00:57:11,510 --> 00:57:09,839
that I've looked at in relation to

1454
00:57:13,910 --> 00:57:11,520
Modern physics

1455
00:57:16,130 --> 00:57:13,920
um and uh also we've talked about Carl

1456
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:16,140
popper a little bit before and how he

1457
00:57:19,609 --> 00:57:17,760
talks about you know there's there's

1458
00:57:22,609 --> 00:57:19,619
observation and then there's

1459
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:22,619
interpretation and then there's argument

1460
00:57:28,309 --> 00:57:25,440
and he talks about how argument about

1461
00:57:29,809 --> 00:57:28,319
interpretation of the observations is as

1462
00:57:32,510 --> 00:57:29,819
important as making the observations

1463
00:57:34,430 --> 00:57:32,520
themselves and there's such a long

1464
00:57:35,870 --> 00:57:34,440
history of things being sort of like the

1465
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:35,880
baby being thrown out the bath water

1466
00:57:39,950 --> 00:57:37,920
especially in the earth sciences and the

1467
00:57:41,930 --> 00:57:39,960
natural uh the physical sciences so like

1468
00:57:44,750 --> 00:57:41,940
we're seeing I've talked about this

1469
00:57:46,910 --> 00:57:44,760
before but seeing a meteor uh like go

1470
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:46,920
across the sky you would talk if you

1471
00:57:50,690 --> 00:57:48,000
talk to people out in the countryside

1472
00:57:53,510 --> 00:57:50,700
they'd say like I saw an angel and then

1473
00:57:55,309 --> 00:57:53,520
either you're left to say there was

1474
00:57:57,410 --> 00:57:55,319
nothing or you know it was something

1475
00:58:01,250 --> 00:57:57,420
because there was no known plausible

1476
00:58:03,049 --> 00:58:01,260
mechanism to produce the observation and

1477
00:58:05,150 --> 00:58:03,059
now in modern quantum physics you know

1478
00:58:07,730 --> 00:58:05,160
there's you know the original Copenhagen

1479
00:58:10,309 --> 00:58:07,740
interpretation was we don't make an

1480
00:58:12,470 --> 00:58:10,319
interpretation we just do the math and

1481
00:58:14,750 --> 00:58:12,480
that has sort of been lost along the

1482
00:58:16,670 --> 00:58:14,760
Wayside with this sort of like taking on

1483
00:58:19,970 --> 00:58:16,680
of the interpretation of those

1484
00:58:23,870 --> 00:58:19,980
observations and I'm so fascinated by

1485
00:58:26,690 --> 00:58:23,880
um the brogly boom uh uh theory in

1486
00:58:28,849 --> 00:58:26,700
relation to quantum physics because you

1487
00:58:30,109 --> 00:58:28,859
have a macro

1488
00:58:31,970 --> 00:58:30,119
um scale

1489
00:58:34,270 --> 00:58:31,980
um experiments that you can produce that

1490
00:58:36,530 --> 00:58:34,280
are these oil baths with little uh

1491
00:58:38,329 --> 00:58:36,540
droplets of water bouncing on top of a

1492
00:58:40,250 --> 00:58:38,339
vibrating oil surface and you can

1493
00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:40,260
produce the identical statistical

1494
00:58:45,230 --> 00:58:43,200
effects that in quantum physics are

1495
00:58:48,770 --> 00:58:45,240
claimed to be produced by these sort of

1496
00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:48,780
like conceptual imaginary effects and so

1497
00:58:52,910 --> 00:58:51,119
there is a plausible sufficient purely

1498
00:58:55,250 --> 00:58:52,920
mechanistic explanation available it is

1499
00:58:57,770 --> 00:58:55,260
simply not the primary uh cosmology we

1500
00:59:00,410 --> 00:58:57,780
currently subscribe to and it does make

1501
00:59:03,470 --> 00:59:00,420
me wonder it's like with these things so

1502
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:03,480
built into humans like like is how many

1503
00:59:07,609 --> 00:59:05,520
of our uh paradigms that we currently

1504
00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:07,619
subscribe to maybe will

1505
00:59:12,049 --> 00:59:10,319
change over time but it's not even on

1506
00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:12,059
new observations but simply on

1507
00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:14,160
interpretations of observations that

1508
00:59:19,130 --> 00:59:16,140
were taken for granted

1509
00:59:21,530 --> 00:59:19,140
right wasn't uh I always think of like

1510
00:59:24,109 --> 00:59:21,540
the the ptolemaic I think solar system

1511
00:59:26,329 --> 00:59:24,119
was uh the glass spheres are you

1512
00:59:29,990 --> 00:59:26,339
familiar with this idea and how it like

1513
00:59:31,250 --> 00:59:30,000
made predictions really well up to a

1514
00:59:34,609 --> 00:59:31,260
certain point I think it had to do with

1515
00:59:37,670 --> 00:59:34,619
Mars in retrograde right okay and just

1516
00:59:39,890 --> 00:59:37,680
like it seems so good and it almost fit

1517
00:59:43,490 --> 00:59:39,900
every aspect but then turned out to just

1518
00:59:46,670 --> 00:59:43,500
be completely wrong yeah well Newtonian

1519
00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:46,680
physics they they don't work Newtonian

1520
00:59:50,210 --> 00:59:48,480
physics doesn't work at the quantum

1521
00:59:53,089 --> 00:59:50,220
level right and that's what our modern

1522
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:53,099
cosmology is is that each time we make

1523
00:59:58,609 --> 00:59:55,680
an observation that's inconsistent with

1524
01:00:01,670 --> 00:59:58,619
our expectations we introduce a new dark

1525
01:00:03,770 --> 01:00:01,680
something to fill in the Gap right and

1526
01:00:05,390 --> 01:00:03,780
it's like just mind-blowing to me but

1527
01:00:07,370 --> 01:00:05,400
it's like oh the Stars aren't going at

1528
01:00:08,990 --> 01:00:07,380
the rate that Newton said they would on

1529
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:09,000
the outside of the Galaxy and it's like

1530
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:11,760
oh that's dark matter and it's like well

1531
01:00:15,829 --> 01:00:13,920
and whatever you see is the dark matter

1532
01:00:17,870 --> 01:00:15,839
and it probably is dark matter I'm not

1533
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:17,880
disagreeing with dark matter but that's

1534
01:00:21,950 --> 01:00:19,920
the interpretation of an observation not

1535
01:00:24,349 --> 01:00:21,960
right the observation it's it's like

1536
01:00:25,970 --> 01:00:24,359
they say in a data science and AI all

1537
01:00:28,990 --> 01:00:25,980
models are bad but some models are

1538
01:00:38,210 --> 01:00:31,849
Eisenhower he says all uh planning is

1539
01:00:42,170 --> 01:00:40,609
and absurdity what bizarre phenomena can

1540
01:00:44,990 --> 01:00:42,180
tell us about the nature of reality

1541
01:00:46,970 --> 01:00:45,000
that's the title you've brought that up

1542
01:00:50,270 --> 01:00:46,980
yeah it's totally worth reading it's a

1543
01:00:51,710 --> 01:00:50,280
little dense but I would say

1544
01:00:54,289 --> 01:00:51,720
a more

1545
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:54,299
um and I do have a soft spot for valet

1546
01:01:00,109 --> 01:00:56,160
but it feels to me like a much more

1547
01:01:02,030 --> 01:01:00,119
intellectually sophisticated view uh of

1548
01:01:04,190 --> 01:01:02,040
ballet like if it were developed a bit

1549
01:01:06,410 --> 01:01:04,200
further like with the rigors of sort of

1550
01:01:10,809 --> 01:01:06,420
someone who studies Consciousness and

1551
01:01:14,990 --> 01:01:13,250
we'll set the is that the end of ghosts

1552
01:01:17,569 --> 01:01:15,000
I don't have anything else to say about

1553
01:01:19,309 --> 01:01:17,579
ghosts nothing I mean I I'd love to pick

1554
01:01:22,010 --> 01:01:19,319
your brain about ghosts if you want to

1555
01:01:24,049 --> 01:01:22,020
stick around for another half hour or so

1556
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:24,059
um yeah so so you've done some ghost

1557
01:01:27,170 --> 01:01:25,200
hunting

1558
01:01:29,089 --> 01:01:27,180
um one of the questions I have is why do

1559
01:01:30,650 --> 01:01:29,099
they do ghost hunting at night time

1560
01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:30,660
what are your thoughts on this versus

1561
01:01:35,510 --> 01:01:33,599
like during the bright light of day way

1562
01:01:37,549 --> 01:01:35,520
less spooky time when it's too clearly

1563
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:37,559
because the producers have decided that

1564
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:40,319
it's spooky and uh you want to shoot in

1565
01:01:46,370 --> 01:01:42,960
night vision it's essentially a Trope

1566
01:01:47,930 --> 01:01:46,380
um I I can kind of there's uh it's the

1567
01:01:50,329 --> 01:01:47,940
second episode of the first season of

1568
01:01:52,490 --> 01:01:50,339
sightings I I've actually referenced it

1569
01:01:53,930 --> 01:01:52,500
a couple times I think ghost raid man

1570
01:01:56,750 --> 01:01:53,940
here on the show tonight ladies and

1571
01:02:00,770 --> 01:01:56,760
gentlemen I just rewatched this episode

1572
01:02:01,910 --> 01:02:00,780
uh yeah William roll and a psychic uh

1573
01:02:04,130 --> 01:02:01,920
and a couple other I think

1574
01:02:07,609 --> 01:02:04,140
parapsychologists all investigating a

1575
01:02:10,609 --> 01:02:07,619
haunting and he says very clearly

1576
01:02:13,010 --> 01:02:10,619
since the claims all happened at night

1577
01:02:15,170 --> 01:02:13,020
we'll be investigating at night now I

1578
01:02:16,730 --> 01:02:15,180
think that this episode was almost a

1579
01:02:20,030 --> 01:02:16,740
blueprint for every ghost show going

1580
01:02:22,069 --> 01:02:20,040
forward because now it doesn't matter he

1581
01:02:24,589 --> 01:02:22,079
lays out the steps to you first you

1582
01:02:26,030 --> 01:02:24,599
start with the witness interview then

1583
01:02:27,530 --> 01:02:26,040
you go and do the research where you

1584
01:02:28,430 --> 01:02:27,540
find out all the dead people that died

1585
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:28,440
there

1586
01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:30,480
and then you go and get your phase three

1587
01:02:34,609 --> 01:02:33,000
the Imperial ground the obligatory

1588
01:02:38,210 --> 01:02:34,619
Indian burial ground

1589
01:02:40,490 --> 01:02:38,220
so yeah like nowadays you listen to

1590
01:02:42,370 --> 01:02:40,500
these claims of these people who uh say

1591
01:02:45,410 --> 01:02:42,380
that they're being haunted

1592
01:02:47,390 --> 01:02:45,420
knew like these things happen during the

1593
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:47,400
day in the middle afternoon at night but

1594
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:49,200
it's always at night and it's always

1595
01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:50,880
shot through night vision I I really

1596
01:02:56,210 --> 01:02:53,280
just think it's it's an aesthetic choice

1597
01:02:59,390 --> 01:02:56,220
for these TV shows now but of course all

1598
01:03:01,309 --> 01:02:59,400
these civilian Ghost Hunters groups are

1599
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:01,319
getting all their knowledge from these

1600
01:03:05,930 --> 01:03:03,839
TV shows or the books that these uh

1601
01:03:08,690 --> 01:03:05,940
personalities are writing so they are

1602
01:03:11,030 --> 01:03:08,700
just taking all of that uh which is

1603
01:03:12,829 --> 01:03:11,040
essentially created by producers and

1604
01:03:15,530 --> 01:03:12,839
mimicking it

1605
01:03:17,450 --> 01:03:15,540
so that's why foreign

1606
01:03:19,549 --> 01:03:17,460
I mean I did it too when I did my ghost

1607
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:19,559
hunting I mean it's uh it's part of the

1608
01:03:23,809 --> 01:03:21,839
experience now it's part of the ritual

1609
01:03:26,809 --> 01:03:23,819
right yeah it's totally it's it's a

1610
01:03:28,849 --> 01:03:26,819
group ritual and it's also like it feels

1611
01:03:32,089 --> 01:03:28,859
to me too like a perfect environment for

1612
01:03:34,250 --> 01:03:32,099
like folio de like The Madness of two or

1613
01:03:34,910 --> 01:03:34,260
like The Madness of a group where you

1614
01:03:37,130 --> 01:03:34,920
know

1615
01:03:39,470 --> 01:03:37,140
um or more pleasantly a dream we dream

1616
01:03:41,809 --> 01:03:39,480
together is reality to quote John Lennon

1617
01:03:43,490 --> 01:03:41,819
like when you have one person in a group

1618
01:03:44,809 --> 01:03:43,500
completely convinced that they saw

1619
01:03:46,190 --> 01:03:44,819
something it's easier to convince the

1620
01:03:47,750 --> 01:03:46,200
next person and then all of a sudden you

1621
01:03:50,270 --> 01:03:47,760
have a group of people who all had an

1622
01:03:52,250 --> 01:03:50,280
encounter instead of just one not to

1623
01:03:54,230 --> 01:03:52,260
mention all the priming uh you're all

1624
01:03:56,450 --> 01:03:54,240
doing to each other right you are

1625
01:04:00,289 --> 01:03:56,460
expecting it's like the ghost foreplay

1626
01:04:02,089 --> 01:04:00,299
yeah yeah yes you prime yourself to see

1627
01:04:05,089 --> 01:04:02,099
and hear things that are spooky you

1628
01:04:07,730 --> 01:04:05,099
spook yourself out so now any sound

1629
01:04:09,530 --> 01:04:07,740
becomes mysterious and disembodied

1630
01:04:12,650 --> 01:04:09,540
things communicating with you or

1631
01:04:15,710 --> 01:04:12,660
creaking anything Creak any sound any uh

1632
01:04:16,970 --> 01:04:15,720
any draft because of course uh ghosts

1633
01:04:19,569 --> 01:04:16,980
are known to

1634
01:04:23,450 --> 01:04:19,579
well they're known to be hot and cold

1635
01:04:26,030 --> 01:04:23,460
depending on her you were reading

1636
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:26,040
um there yeah there are no actual uh

1637
01:04:29,809 --> 01:04:28,319
distinct characteristics or known facts

1638
01:04:31,730 --> 01:04:29,819
about ghosts

1639
01:04:33,589 --> 01:04:31,740
so this collecting of evidence and stuff

1640
01:04:35,210 --> 01:04:33,599
like that and saying like ah this points

1641
01:04:37,730 --> 01:04:35,220
to a ghost it doesn't really make sense

1642
01:04:40,250 --> 01:04:37,740
there are no like qualities of a ghost

1643
01:04:41,630 --> 01:04:40,260
that we can say are uh explicitly

1644
01:04:44,030 --> 01:04:41,640
Ghostly

1645
01:04:47,329 --> 01:04:44,040
it's interesting too that like the

1646
01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:47,339
technology uh that's used to uh study

1647
01:04:54,289 --> 01:04:50,220
them or attempts to verify the ghosts is

1648
01:04:55,970 --> 01:04:54,299
based on the same science uh around I

1649
01:04:59,450 --> 01:04:55,980
guess electromagnetism things like that

1650
01:05:02,329 --> 01:04:59,460
that sort of produce the original uh

1651
01:05:05,809 --> 01:05:02,339
perception that there is a opportunity

1652
01:05:08,690 --> 01:05:05,819
within this space to produce a plausible

1653
01:05:10,750 --> 01:05:08,700
sufficient explanation for things but as

1654
01:05:15,349 --> 01:05:10,760
you apply that technology to the subject

1655
01:05:19,250 --> 01:05:15,359
the features of the subject of study uh

1656
01:05:22,670 --> 01:05:19,260
diminish because the evidence is so uh

1657
01:05:24,410 --> 01:05:22,680
fleeting and so the actual features of

1658
01:05:26,089 --> 01:05:24,420
like it's like a UFO and a ghost like

1659
01:05:28,970 --> 01:05:26,099
the features of it are those things

1660
01:05:31,250 --> 01:05:28,980
which we could verify and have shown

1661
01:05:33,170 --> 01:05:31,260
that it's not right so it's like almost

1662
01:05:34,970 --> 01:05:33,180
like it is like the reverse image like

1663
01:05:38,690 --> 01:05:34,980
the shadow image of the thing being

1664
01:05:40,970 --> 01:05:38,700
studied yeah yeah and I think I think a

1665
01:05:44,210 --> 01:05:40,980
lot of the issue is um is this kind of

1666
01:05:46,910 --> 01:05:44,220
like borrowing of scientific language we

1667
01:05:48,710 --> 01:05:46,920
a big one in ghost hunting along with a

1668
01:05:50,410 --> 01:05:48,720
lot of other kind of Fringe topics is

1669
01:05:55,069 --> 01:05:50,420
energy

1670
01:05:58,010 --> 01:05:55,079
they they are talking about essentially

1671
01:05:58,670 --> 01:05:58,020
a soul or a life force or that that kind

1672
01:06:01,670 --> 01:05:58,680
of

1673
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:01,680
um the The Duality the the non-physical

1674
01:06:07,549 --> 01:06:04,799
part of of people they call that energy

1675
01:06:08,809 --> 01:06:07,559
so then they start applying

1676
01:06:11,690 --> 01:06:08,819
um like the laws of thermometer

1677
01:06:13,910 --> 01:06:11,700
thermodynamics to it so like I have

1678
01:06:15,829 --> 01:06:13,920
energy in my body and it can't be

1679
01:06:17,030 --> 01:06:15,839
destroyed so where does it go you

1680
01:06:19,370 --> 01:06:17,040
actually will hear a lot of Ghost

1681
01:06:20,750 --> 01:06:19,380
Hunters repeat that

1682
01:06:22,730 --> 01:06:20,760
um but you but if you ask them like well

1683
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:22,740
what do you mean do you mean like uh

1684
01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:24,240
kinetic potential energy do you mean

1685
01:06:29,150 --> 01:06:26,160
heat do you mean light and they're like

1686
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:29,160
no they're essentially using a secular

1687
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:33,119
term for a soul but it all gets muddied

1688
01:06:37,130 --> 01:06:34,559
um when you're trying to bring this

1689
01:06:39,410 --> 01:06:37,140
scientific uh language and set it on top

1690
01:06:40,789 --> 01:06:39,420
of these rituals

1691
01:06:42,410 --> 01:06:40,799
well I mean

1692
01:06:43,789 --> 01:06:42,420
one of the other things I wanted to ask

1693
01:06:46,910 --> 01:06:43,799
you about is like what's the general

1694
01:06:49,490 --> 01:06:46,920
consensus of what a ghost actually is so

1695
01:06:51,710 --> 01:06:49,500
I I haven't gotten into ghost subculture

1696
01:06:53,569 --> 01:06:51,720
yet I've been a little busy with a

1697
01:06:55,910 --> 01:06:53,579
little foray through the Sasquatch and

1698
01:06:58,910 --> 01:06:55,920
Bigfoot world lately

1699
01:07:00,109 --> 01:06:58,920
um I know that's a that's a pit with no

1700
01:07:02,510 --> 01:07:00,119
bottom

1701
01:07:04,430 --> 01:07:02,520
um but you know when I think of ghosts

1702
01:07:06,829 --> 01:07:04,440
it's like okay it's communication from

1703
01:07:09,410 --> 01:07:06,839
dead people or

1704
01:07:10,670 --> 01:07:09,420
um some sort of manifestation of like

1705
01:07:12,289 --> 01:07:10,680
you I think you call them crisis

1706
01:07:14,270 --> 01:07:12,299
apparitions

1707
01:07:16,130 --> 01:07:14,280
um it's something my brain is or a brain

1708
01:07:18,309 --> 01:07:16,140
is making up and projecting out or it's

1709
01:07:21,190 --> 01:07:18,319
something that's effectively like

1710
01:07:23,750 --> 01:07:21,200
recorded like uh some sort of

1711
01:07:25,670 --> 01:07:23,760
electromagnetic recording and space time

1712
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:25,680
that gets replayed like that's what I've

1713
01:07:32,089 --> 01:07:29,039
heard too what are the ideas around what

1714
01:07:35,329 --> 01:07:32,099
ghosts actually are and then my second

1715
01:07:38,510 --> 01:07:35,339
part of that question is

1716
01:07:40,670 --> 01:07:38,520
um what are the ideas that are most

1717
01:07:43,010 --> 01:07:40,680
popular right now or the theories that

1718
01:07:46,270 --> 01:07:43,020
are most popular well I'm not too up to

1719
01:07:48,289 --> 01:07:46,280
date but speak for the community Nick

1720
01:07:49,970 --> 01:07:48,299
lifetime there were uh there were

1721
01:07:51,950 --> 01:07:49,980
distinctions in hauntings there were

1722
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:51,960
intelligent hauntings which is what you

1723
01:07:57,710 --> 01:07:55,440
think of as a the spirit The Immortal

1724
01:07:59,630 --> 01:07:57,720
Spirit of a person who has died who left

1725
01:08:01,069 --> 01:07:59,640
here in some kind of purgatory who felt

1726
01:08:02,990 --> 01:08:01,079
like wrongs the Earth man and they got

1727
01:08:05,690 --> 01:08:03,000
stuck in a hospital or mental

1728
01:08:08,029 --> 01:08:05,700
ward that sucks right yeah Purgatory

1729
01:08:09,410 --> 01:08:08,039
yeah of course uh and they can't leave

1730
01:08:11,510 --> 01:08:09,420
and they're still wearing their clothes

1731
01:08:12,470 --> 01:08:11,520
of course it's just really strange to

1732
01:08:15,890 --> 01:08:12,480
you

1733
01:08:17,150 --> 01:08:15,900
called they call them the residual

1734
01:08:19,570 --> 01:08:17,160
hauntings which is kind of what you

1735
01:08:23,809 --> 01:08:19,580
explained is this like

1736
01:08:25,610 --> 01:08:23,819
traumatic energy that was stored in some

1737
01:08:28,669 --> 01:08:25,620
property of the surrounding environment

1738
01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:28,679
I've heard um Limestone uh could do this

1739
01:08:35,390 --> 01:08:31,440
via the pzoelectric effect although if

1740
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:35,400
you died it doesn't make any sense

1741
01:08:40,430 --> 01:08:37,920
um but also with water

1742
01:08:43,070 --> 01:08:40,440
um so these are just um

1743
01:08:45,289 --> 01:08:43,080
and it's never in my research it's never

1744
01:08:47,689 --> 01:08:45,299
explained into much detail is if they uh

1745
01:08:50,630 --> 01:08:47,699
these projections are being projected

1746
01:08:52,189 --> 01:08:50,640
into our environment like a hologram or

1747
01:08:55,189 --> 01:08:52,199
if they're being projected directly into

1748
01:08:57,470 --> 01:08:55,199
our mind I think the the concept is that

1749
01:08:58,669 --> 01:08:57,480
they are actually projecting a hologram

1750
01:09:03,050 --> 01:08:58,679
essentially

1751
01:09:05,749 --> 01:09:03,060
of of some emotional event they they

1752
01:09:08,090 --> 01:09:05,759
like to say that emotion uh plays a part

1753
01:09:09,890 --> 01:09:08,100
in I guess kind of the the choosing of

1754
01:09:11,390 --> 01:09:09,900
which events become hauntings and which

1755
01:09:16,010 --> 01:09:11,400
don't

1756
01:09:19,309 --> 01:09:16,020
um for trauma uh and then there is the

1757
01:09:22,130 --> 01:09:19,319
the Demonic hauntings which were kind of

1758
01:09:24,530 --> 01:09:22,140
uh these are the uh the products of the

1759
01:09:26,209 --> 01:09:24,540
Warrens I believe Edward Lorraine Warren

1760
01:09:28,970 --> 01:09:26,219
who you might be familiar with if you've

1761
01:09:31,370 --> 01:09:28,980
seen any of The Conjuring movies

1762
01:09:33,590 --> 01:09:31,380
um they were a ghost hunting couple uh

1763
01:09:36,010 --> 01:09:33,600
in self-proclaimed demonologists they

1764
01:09:38,990 --> 01:09:36,020
investigated the um the Amityville

1765
01:09:41,090 --> 01:09:39,000
Horror hoax which they also in New York

1766
01:09:44,090 --> 01:09:41,100
yep which they claimed as a real thing

1767
01:09:46,189 --> 01:09:44,100
it was a uh it was a concept to sell uh

1768
01:09:48,229 --> 01:09:46,199
book writes and movie deals

1769
01:09:50,209 --> 01:09:48,239
um there was the their possessed Raggedy

1770
01:09:51,890 --> 01:09:50,219
and doll Annabelle which I think there's

1771
01:09:54,110 --> 01:09:51,900
a movie about that too

1772
01:09:55,850 --> 01:09:54,120
um is the Amityville Horror like

1773
01:09:58,729 --> 01:09:55,860
generally perceived among the ghost

1774
01:10:00,830 --> 01:09:58,739
hunting crowd as being a total croc or

1775
01:10:03,189 --> 01:10:00,840
other True Believers there's True

1776
01:10:06,770 --> 01:10:03,199
Believers of every case that's fair

1777
01:10:09,169 --> 01:10:06,780
fundamentalists exist everywhere but

1778
01:10:10,510 --> 01:10:09,179
um but yeah they were frauds uh

1779
01:10:12,650 --> 01:10:10,520
essentially

1780
01:10:14,090 --> 01:10:12,660
I'll just call it like it is they were

1781
01:10:15,830 --> 01:10:14,100
frogs

1782
01:10:17,750 --> 01:10:15,840
um they they perpetuated a lot of cases

1783
01:10:19,250 --> 01:10:17,760
like that they would um

1784
01:10:22,310 --> 01:10:19,260
since they were celebrities and stuff

1785
01:10:24,530 --> 01:10:22,320
they would actually be brought in like

1786
01:10:26,570 --> 01:10:24,540
um I think they the Columbus Poltergeist

1787
01:10:28,669 --> 01:10:26,580
they showed up for about a day said it

1788
01:10:30,830 --> 01:10:28,679
was legit and moved on it was basically

1789
01:10:34,610 --> 01:10:30,840
kind of a seal of approval for any kind

1790
01:10:36,290 --> 01:10:34,620
of um haunting case for it to be deemed

1791
01:10:38,030 --> 01:10:36,300
in certain circles as legitimate and

1792
01:10:41,450 --> 01:10:38,040
then of course be made into books and

1793
01:10:44,030 --> 01:10:41,460
movies right so so

1794
01:10:45,130 --> 01:10:44,040
some hauntings are considered apparently

1795
01:10:47,149 --> 01:10:45,140
demons

1796
01:10:50,570 --> 01:10:47,159
I don't personally know much about

1797
01:10:54,050 --> 01:10:51,229
um

1798
01:10:56,570 --> 01:10:54,060
but that is a category I think what

1799
01:10:58,189 --> 01:10:56,580
distinguishes uh them to Ghost Hunters

1800
01:11:00,649 --> 01:10:58,199
is that they're

1801
01:11:02,390 --> 01:11:00,659
similar to Poltergeist encounters only

1802
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:02,400
they're more violent you'll see um

1803
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:04,560
scratching very superficial scratching

1804
01:11:08,390 --> 01:11:06,239
in all the cases that I've seen things

1805
01:11:09,830 --> 01:11:08,400
you could do like with your fingernails

1806
01:11:11,810 --> 01:11:09,840
like when you're lifting up your shirt

1807
01:11:13,490 --> 01:11:11,820
you can scratch that kind of thing

1808
01:11:16,990 --> 01:11:13,500
you'll see a lot of that uh take place

1809
01:11:22,430 --> 01:11:19,669
those are the haunting uh

1810
01:11:24,590 --> 01:11:22,440
classifications that I'm aware of

1811
01:11:26,330 --> 01:11:24,600
yeah I I want to call it this comment

1812
01:11:28,790 --> 01:11:26,340
from Brooke quote I had friends that

1813
01:11:31,370 --> 01:11:28,800
were atheists would go do ghost tours I

1814
01:11:33,050 --> 01:11:31,380
was like hmm so this is interesting

1815
01:11:37,430 --> 01:11:33,060
because like I don't think being

1816
01:11:40,370 --> 01:11:37,440
interested in ghosts is necessarily uh

1817
01:11:42,189 --> 01:11:40,380
oppositional to believing in God or not

1818
01:11:43,910 --> 01:11:42,199
believing in God right like like

1819
01:11:45,770 --> 01:11:43,920
especially when you're talking about

1820
01:11:47,930 --> 01:11:45,780
this sort of scientific approach to the

1821
01:11:49,430 --> 01:11:47,940
subject like it sort of disintermediates

1822
01:11:50,689 --> 01:11:49,440
the need to believe in like a higher

1823
01:11:52,669 --> 01:11:50,699
power of any kind you could just be

1824
01:11:54,830 --> 01:11:52,679
saying like Okay like

1825
01:11:56,870 --> 01:11:54,840
even if there's not a material human

1826
01:11:59,630 --> 01:11:56,880
being anymore there may still be some

1827
01:12:00,950 --> 01:11:59,640
sort of energetic response or echo of

1828
01:12:03,110 --> 01:12:00,960
them sure there's there's still

1829
01:12:05,090 --> 01:12:03,120
questions to you like the kind of

1830
01:12:06,649 --> 01:12:05,100
Duality and stuff like that or I mean

1831
01:12:08,930 --> 01:12:06,659
you could take it from the approach of

1832
01:12:10,850 --> 01:12:08,940
the parapsychologist from uh during the

1833
01:12:13,610 --> 01:12:10,860
1900s where these things that we're

1834
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:13,620
perceiving as ghosts are really just

1835
01:12:18,830 --> 01:12:15,840
um manifestations of latent psychic

1836
01:12:20,630 --> 01:12:18,840
abilities that everyone which I I like

1837
01:12:23,270 --> 01:12:20,640
that that sounds cool I don't believe it

1838
01:12:26,330 --> 01:12:23,280
but um it's it's yeah you appreciate the

1839
01:12:27,890 --> 01:12:26,340
Aesthetics of this idea yeah I I

1840
01:12:30,229 --> 01:12:27,900
wouldn't mind more testing in that

1841
01:12:32,450 --> 01:12:30,239
actually I think I think it seems cool

1842
01:12:35,209 --> 01:12:32,460
yeah I think it's totally something

1843
01:12:36,590 --> 01:12:35,219
worth continued exploration even if it

1844
01:12:38,030 --> 01:12:36,600
like and I had like a little tweet

1845
01:12:41,330 --> 01:12:38,040
Thread about this when I was digging

1846
01:12:43,970 --> 01:12:41,340
into the Ryan laboratory and the issues

1847
01:12:45,410 --> 01:12:43,980
with the experiments like look even if

1848
01:12:47,770 --> 01:12:45,420
there are experimental issues with what

1849
01:12:51,229 --> 01:12:47,780
was going on at that parapsychology lab

1850
01:12:53,330 --> 01:12:51,239
I love the I I kind of love that humans

1851
01:12:55,550 --> 01:12:53,340
are so obsessed with this idea like I

1852
01:12:57,169 --> 01:12:55,560
like this idea that we dedicate research

1853
01:12:58,250 --> 01:12:57,179
funding to it that we dive into it

1854
01:13:01,070 --> 01:12:58,260
because it's something that clearly

1855
01:13:02,990 --> 01:13:01,080
preoccupies humans through all cultures

1856
01:13:04,910 --> 01:13:03,000
through all ages

1857
01:13:07,310 --> 01:13:04,920
um and I I like this idea that it's

1858
01:13:10,310 --> 01:13:07,320
something that we want to bring into

1859
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:10,320
rigorous intellectual and academic study

1860
01:13:15,050 --> 01:13:12,960
sure it's a very deeply human thing to

1861
01:13:17,149 --> 01:13:15,060
me yeah I want to understand and know

1862
01:13:19,430 --> 01:13:17,159
this the controls a little bit on it

1863
01:13:21,790 --> 01:13:19,440
next time we do it and uh and it's just

1864
01:13:25,070 --> 01:13:21,800
kind of see where it goes

1865
01:13:28,430 --> 01:13:25,080
well it's interesting too because what

1866
01:13:30,709 --> 01:13:28,440
like like what is Wi-Fi technology if

1867
01:13:32,750 --> 01:13:30,719
not essentially what they perceived

1868
01:13:35,270 --> 01:13:32,760
except for externally controlled right

1869
01:13:37,970 --> 01:13:35,280
and then Elon Musk is developing a

1870
01:13:40,490 --> 01:13:37,980
mechanism that is installed into the

1871
01:13:43,250 --> 01:13:40,500
brain and then if you can physically

1872
01:13:45,970 --> 01:13:43,260
move objects in your room through your

1873
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:45,980
thoughts over a Wi-Fi network which is

1874
01:13:51,530 --> 01:13:48,960
electromagnetic energy that's freaking

1875
01:13:53,689 --> 01:13:51,540
weirdly close to what these people were

1876
01:13:57,169 --> 01:13:53,699
like kind of suggesting except obviously

1877
01:13:59,870 --> 01:13:57,179
it's the technology that produces the

1878
01:14:01,310 --> 01:13:59,880
the dream or the fantasy or or I mean

1879
01:14:03,229 --> 01:14:01,320
obviously it's possible it's true but

1880
01:14:05,649 --> 01:14:03,239
you know exactly it's interesting like

1881
01:14:08,330 --> 01:14:05,659
we create that reality for ourselves

1882
01:14:09,770 --> 01:14:08,340
that makes me think um we see these

1883
01:14:11,390 --> 01:14:09,780
emerging Technologies and then people

1884
01:14:13,130 --> 01:14:11,400
are using them kind of to try to

1885
01:14:15,530 --> 01:14:13,140
communicate with the dead I'm surprised

1886
01:14:18,290 --> 01:14:15,540
there wasn't uh like an internet take on

1887
01:14:20,689 --> 01:14:18,300
that like speaking to ghosts through the

1888
01:14:23,090 --> 01:14:20,699
internet I haven't really seen much of

1889
01:14:26,689 --> 01:14:23,100
that there were um there were a number

1890
01:14:29,649 --> 01:14:26,699
of cases where uh trying to find EVP and

1891
01:14:32,330 --> 01:14:29,659
dial-up modem noises

1892
01:14:34,550 --> 01:14:32,340
there were a number of cases of people

1893
01:14:36,950 --> 01:14:34,560
whose cell phones texted people after

1894
01:14:38,209 --> 01:14:36,960
they died so that was kind of writing

1895
01:14:40,250 --> 01:14:38,219
that way but those were kind of few and

1896
01:14:43,430 --> 01:14:40,260
far between and then I never saw kind of

1897
01:14:45,530 --> 01:14:43,440
like the internet age of uh mediumship

1898
01:14:47,570 --> 01:14:45,540
unfortunately you know I'm kind of

1899
01:14:50,810 --> 01:14:47,580
surprised there hasn't been two so it

1900
01:14:52,970 --> 01:14:50,820
makes it reminds me uh so rather rather

1901
01:14:54,950 --> 01:14:52,980
rather be squidding yeah he has a video

1902
01:14:57,590 --> 01:14:54,960
from a couple months ago on his Channel

1903
01:14:59,649 --> 01:14:57,600
about using your

1904
01:15:03,530 --> 01:14:59,659
um cell phone camera to detect radiation

1905
01:15:05,510 --> 01:15:03,540
because your camera can pick up like

1906
01:15:07,310 --> 01:15:05,520
um signal outside the visible light

1907
01:15:08,450 --> 01:15:07,320
spectrum like there's apps you can

1908
01:15:11,270 --> 01:15:08,460
download to basically pick up like

1909
01:15:12,890 --> 01:15:11,280
neutrinos and stuff super cool

1910
01:15:14,810 --> 01:15:12,900
um and it sort of it does surprise me

1911
01:15:17,090 --> 01:15:14,820
that there is not appropriation of cell

1912
01:15:18,830 --> 01:15:17,100
phones and similar Technologies for that

1913
01:15:20,270 --> 01:15:18,840
same kind of purpose because it feels

1914
01:15:22,310 --> 01:15:20,280
like given that we're all carrying

1915
01:15:23,870 --> 01:15:22,320
around like little super sense seeing

1916
01:15:25,490 --> 01:15:23,880
super computers in our pockets all the

1917
01:15:28,250 --> 01:15:25,500
time it seems like a very natural sort

1918
01:15:29,930 --> 01:15:28,260
of lending of that technology I just

1919
01:15:31,970 --> 01:15:29,940
maybe I just don't know my ghost apps

1920
01:15:33,890 --> 01:15:31,980
very well there were there were

1921
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:33,900
especially in kind of the beginning

1922
01:15:37,850 --> 01:15:35,520
um the early models of the iPhone and

1923
01:15:39,890 --> 01:15:37,860
the iPad Touch there were ghost apps

1924
01:15:40,970 --> 01:15:39,900
that kind of used this in it but it was

1925
01:15:42,830 --> 01:15:40,980
just

1926
01:15:45,110 --> 01:15:42,840
it was it was all it wasn't

1927
01:15:46,850 --> 01:15:45,120
actually detecting anything it just kind

1928
01:15:48,830 --> 01:15:46,860
of put clicked on it that was about the

1929
01:15:52,130 --> 01:15:48,840
extent of ghost apps uh from what I

1930
01:15:54,410 --> 01:15:52,140
remember you know yeah one of the things

1931
01:15:56,290 --> 01:15:54,420
we didn't talk about but I wanted to

1932
01:15:59,450 --> 01:15:56,300
comment on too is

1933
01:16:02,570 --> 01:15:59,460
uh ghost photography like during the

1934
01:16:04,850 --> 01:16:02,580
Victorian period about William Muller

1935
01:16:07,970 --> 01:16:04,860
yeah it will and just that like this

1936
01:16:11,630 --> 01:16:09,169
it's like this emergent technology

1937
01:16:15,430 --> 01:16:11,640
that's being appropriated to serve this

1938
01:16:17,870 --> 01:16:15,440
sort of spiritualist Slash uh

1939
01:16:20,570 --> 01:16:17,880
investigate the luminal spaces around

1940
01:16:22,729 --> 01:16:20,580
The Human Experience I I loved that that

1941
01:16:25,850 --> 01:16:22,739
they were essentially it came out of an

1942
01:16:27,530 --> 01:16:25,860
accident and uh the guys like no this is

1943
01:16:30,470 --> 01:16:27,540
a really good idea

1944
01:16:32,810 --> 01:16:30,480
um think people would pay up to I think

1945
01:16:35,630 --> 01:16:32,820
it was ten dollars at the time for these

1946
01:16:37,970 --> 01:16:35,640
photos which is like a couple hundred

1947
01:16:40,490 --> 01:16:37,980
bucks now 300 bucks

1948
01:16:42,770 --> 01:16:40,500
um and in fact one of the early Pioneers

1949
01:16:46,430 --> 01:16:42,780
at EVPs that uh

1950
01:16:48,530 --> 01:16:46,440
I say research uh experimentation was um

1951
01:16:50,510 --> 01:16:48,540
a spirit photographer who wanted

1952
01:16:52,910 --> 01:16:50,520
something to kind of go along with it to

1953
01:16:55,130 --> 01:16:52,920
kind of corroborate his uh his Spirit

1954
01:16:57,770 --> 01:16:55,140
paintings or his Spirit photos he wanted

1955
01:16:59,330 --> 01:16:57,780
uh to record voices to you so he was one

1956
01:17:01,010 --> 01:16:59,340
of the earlier Pioneers in EVP

1957
01:17:03,530 --> 01:17:01,020
experimentation

1958
01:17:05,090 --> 01:17:03,540
but yeah that lasted for a really long

1959
01:17:09,169 --> 01:17:05,100
time yeah I think it was William mumler

1960
01:17:11,870 --> 01:17:09,179
was his name who accidentally uh created

1961
01:17:13,310 --> 01:17:11,880
a double exposure with his cut as in

1962
01:17:15,649 --> 01:17:13,320
um who was deceased at the time his

1963
01:17:17,149 --> 01:17:15,659
cousin's sitting with uh whoever he was

1964
01:17:19,490 --> 01:17:17,159
doing his portrait of

1965
01:17:21,050 --> 01:17:19,500
and I think he realized it at the time

1966
01:17:23,689 --> 01:17:21,060
when it happened but he brought it to a

1967
01:17:25,790 --> 01:17:23,699
medium who said no no this is an actual

1968
01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:25,800
Spirit taken at the time and he's just

1969
01:17:29,810 --> 01:17:28,380
like all right roll with it and then

1970
01:17:32,330 --> 01:17:29,820
that became another popular thing that

1971
01:17:34,729 --> 01:17:32,340
like copycats that sprang up out of this

1972
01:17:36,350 --> 01:17:34,739
really quickly first with the fox

1973
01:17:38,689 --> 01:17:36,360
sisters and mediums and stuff and then

1974
01:17:41,630 --> 01:17:38,699
Spirit photographers sales holders table

1975
01:17:44,510 --> 01:17:41,640
wrappers all that kind of stuff it was

1976
01:17:45,890 --> 01:17:44,520
yeah it was like Proto proto-viral

1977
01:17:48,229 --> 01:17:45,900
essentially

1978
01:17:50,209 --> 01:17:48,239
yeah so it and again Brooke again with

1979
01:17:52,250 --> 01:17:50,219
the next comment um some of it was horny

1980
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:52,260
stuff too ectoplasm came out of all

1981
01:17:55,910 --> 01:17:54,239
sorts of places yeah and that's what

1982
01:17:57,410 --> 01:17:55,920
prompted this question I was like

1983
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:57,420
clicking around looking at ghost

1984
01:18:01,430 --> 01:17:59,280
pictures on Wikipedia and there's all

1985
01:18:02,990 --> 01:18:01,440
these pictures of ectoplasm which

1986
01:18:05,870 --> 01:18:03,000
usually just wind up being like cheese

1987
01:18:09,490 --> 01:18:05,880
cloth that a medium barfs up in the

1988
01:18:14,090 --> 01:18:11,570
the physical app words yeah that was

1989
01:18:16,610 --> 01:18:14,100
kind of the uh the physical mediumship

1990
01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:16,620
flavor that was popular for a little

1991
01:18:20,450 --> 01:18:17,760
while there

1992
01:18:22,910 --> 01:18:20,460
um playing uh accordions inside cages

1993
01:18:26,030 --> 01:18:22,920
all in dark rooms of course

1994
01:18:28,550 --> 01:18:26,040
um there was some efforts to have like a

1995
01:18:30,590 --> 01:18:28,560
neutral observers trying to like uh

1996
01:18:32,810 --> 01:18:30,600
watch for these things but again like I

1997
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:32,820
said low light conditions

1998
01:18:36,830 --> 01:18:35,280
um trap doors stage magician type things

1999
01:18:39,229 --> 01:18:36,840
were happening but yeah

2000
01:18:41,209 --> 01:18:39,239
it's real weird and kind of naughty

2001
01:18:42,590 --> 01:18:41,219
sometimes you're right oh yeah yeah all

2002
01:18:44,630 --> 01:18:42,600
the sexual repression man they want

2003
01:18:48,169 --> 01:18:44,640
naked people with cheesecloths yeah

2004
01:18:52,070 --> 01:18:50,270
well it's a good point and uh yeah Leah

2005
01:18:55,550 --> 01:18:52,080
you mentioned this it's like to what

2006
01:18:58,189 --> 01:18:55,560
extent are these cultures

2007
01:18:59,930 --> 01:18:58,199
um also sort of embodying The Counter

2008
01:19:02,030 --> 01:18:59,940
Culture in a variety of different ways

2009
01:19:03,950 --> 01:19:02,040
right because we have the mainstream and

2010
01:19:05,990 --> 01:19:03,960
that's the uh scientific and all of that

2011
01:19:07,370 --> 01:19:06,000
stuff and that's a new thing and then we

2012
01:19:09,530 --> 01:19:07,380
have these things sort of being pushed

2013
01:19:12,290 --> 01:19:09,540
to the side and I mean there's no

2014
01:19:14,510 --> 01:19:12,300
question that uh the you know sexuality

2015
01:19:16,790 --> 01:19:14,520
and the sort of like spiritual movement

2016
01:19:18,350 --> 01:19:16,800
in the mid 20th century is very closely

2017
01:19:20,930 --> 01:19:18,360
tied together with like the age of

2018
01:19:22,970 --> 01:19:20,940
Aquarius being sort of like uh thing of

2019
01:19:25,729 --> 01:19:22,980
the new age of uh you know Enlightenment

2020
01:19:28,010 --> 01:19:25,739
coming upon us and

2021
01:19:32,270 --> 01:19:28,020
um just makes me think about like like

2022
01:19:33,770 --> 01:19:32,280
with UFOs and ghosts and stuff like

2023
01:19:35,750 --> 01:19:33,780
there's always sort of like this

2024
01:19:38,410 --> 01:19:35,760
directional thing right like it's it's

2025
01:19:42,169 --> 01:19:38,420
like always being framed within this

2026
01:19:42,770 --> 01:19:42,179
Progressive view of history and

2027
01:19:45,410 --> 01:19:42,780
um

2028
01:19:47,149 --> 01:19:45,420
it just makes me wonder like what like

2029
01:19:49,490 --> 01:19:47,159
what

2030
01:19:51,649 --> 01:19:49,500
are ghosts going to end up sort of like

2031
01:19:53,390 --> 01:19:51,659
becoming moving forward right as we

2032
01:19:56,030 --> 01:19:53,400
continue to expand our technological

2033
01:19:58,189 --> 01:19:56,040
abilities sort of like assess the

2034
01:20:01,610 --> 01:19:58,199
observational side of it like where

2035
01:20:04,430 --> 01:20:01,620
where is this going to end up ultimately

2036
01:20:06,410 --> 01:20:04,440
right sorry to say

2037
01:20:08,689 --> 01:20:06,420
um

2038
01:20:11,270 --> 01:20:08,699
Nick when you did ghost hunting

2039
01:20:13,070 --> 01:20:11,280
um would you just talk to me about how

2040
01:20:16,910 --> 01:20:13,080
you would find the places to go

2041
01:20:19,630 --> 01:20:16,920
well um the the biggest local haunting

2042
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:19,640
spot near me uh it was a case called a

2043
01:20:24,950 --> 01:20:22,560
ghost called the Ada witch who was not a

2044
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:24,960
witch in any way she was just a woman

2045
01:20:31,790 --> 01:20:27,600
who uh sought revenge on her cheating

2046
01:20:33,430 --> 01:20:31,800
fiance who killed him fair no and yeah

2047
01:20:36,770 --> 01:20:33,440
everyone called her a witch

2048
01:20:39,169 --> 01:20:36,780
so that that uh kind of east of me um is

2049
01:20:41,090 --> 01:20:39,179
a rural area called Ada

2050
01:20:43,130 --> 01:20:41,100
um and there's this there's really old

2051
01:20:45,410 --> 01:20:43,140
Cemetery in a dirt road and that's kind

2052
01:20:46,729 --> 01:20:45,420
of like The Proving Grounds for anyone

2053
01:20:47,930 --> 01:20:46,739
around this area when they're starting

2054
01:20:50,689 --> 01:20:47,940
up with Ghost Hunter group that's the

2055
01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:50,699
first one they did so um the claims are

2056
01:20:54,410 --> 01:20:52,800
is if you go along uh go out at night

2057
01:20:56,630 --> 01:20:54,420
along that road if you're by yourself

2058
01:20:57,950 --> 01:20:56,640
you'll appear to you either as like she

2059
01:20:59,810 --> 01:20:57,960
normally is or it's like a really

2060
01:21:03,649 --> 01:20:59,820
mangled up face version

2061
01:21:06,110 --> 01:21:03,659
so um I went out there and walked it I

2062
01:21:08,030 --> 01:21:06,120
brought a little dictaphone to record

2063
01:21:11,090 --> 01:21:08,040
voices and I walked the stretch of the

2064
01:21:13,729 --> 01:21:11,100
road never saw anything well

2065
01:21:16,250 --> 01:21:13,739
I take that back I saw some it was very

2066
01:21:17,570 --> 01:21:16,260
dark and I saw some darker figures kind

2067
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:17,580
of moving I think they may have been

2068
01:21:22,070 --> 01:21:19,199
like turkeys or something

2069
01:21:24,050 --> 01:21:22,080
and I did they were ghosts it was the

2070
01:21:26,209 --> 01:21:24,060
Ada witch so I was walking and asking

2071
01:21:27,709 --> 01:21:26,219
questions like are you here can you hear

2072
01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:27,719
me can you communicate you know the

2073
01:21:33,649 --> 01:21:31,199
typical things I got uh what sounded

2074
01:21:36,709 --> 01:21:33,659
like a voice on that recording to it was

2075
01:21:38,270 --> 01:21:36,719
just a yes like that uh to one of my

2076
01:21:40,189 --> 01:21:38,280
questions that I was really excited

2077
01:21:40,970 --> 01:21:40,199
about at the time

2078
01:21:43,130 --> 01:21:40,980
um

2079
01:21:45,050 --> 01:21:43,140
and that that was it for that one I did

2080
01:21:47,570 --> 01:21:45,060
a more traditional one and a house too

2081
01:21:49,910 --> 01:21:47,580
later with a couple other people

2082
01:21:51,950 --> 01:21:49,920
um and that was completely formulaic by

2083
01:21:53,630 --> 01:21:51,960
the books from the TV shows we

2084
01:21:55,850 --> 01:21:53,640
interviewed the witnesses we walked

2085
01:21:58,130 --> 01:21:55,860
around with EMF we shot in night vision

2086
01:21:59,630 --> 01:21:58,140
didn't pick up anything in that one that

2087
01:22:02,390 --> 01:21:59,640
was really uneventful and that was my

2088
01:22:04,310 --> 01:22:02,400
last one what's the what's like the

2089
01:22:06,110 --> 01:22:04,320
somatic experience of being in these

2090
01:22:08,689 --> 01:22:06,120
spaces like do you feel anything in your

2091
01:22:10,610 --> 01:22:08,699
body like when you're walking around you

2092
01:22:12,229 --> 01:22:10,620
know I mean because like even just

2093
01:22:15,350 --> 01:22:12,239
hearing you talk about this like gives

2094
01:22:16,729 --> 01:22:15,360
me that creepy crawly feeling like I

2095
01:22:20,689 --> 01:22:16,739
have no idea how you could walk around

2096
01:22:25,430 --> 01:22:20,699
in a uh commonly acknowledged haunted

2097
01:22:27,050 --> 01:22:25,440
place at night alone quietly like this

2098
01:22:28,490 --> 01:22:27,060
to me already feels like it's priming

2099
01:22:31,370 --> 01:22:28,500
your brain to see some stuff that's

2100
01:22:33,770 --> 01:22:31,380
gonna scare the out of you well

2101
01:22:36,470 --> 01:22:33,780
I don't associate the fear with it I was

2102
01:22:38,930 --> 01:22:36,480
excited both of those times because like

2103
01:22:41,330 --> 01:22:38,940
everybody in Ghost Hunter you think you

2104
01:22:42,890 --> 01:22:41,340
are going to be the one who uh finally

2105
01:22:46,310 --> 01:22:42,900
brings forth The Smoking Gun evidence

2106
01:22:49,010 --> 01:22:46,320
right so I'm excited I was I wasn't I

2107
01:22:51,770 --> 01:22:49,020
wasn't really like scared of it

2108
01:22:53,990 --> 01:22:51,780
um either time I I was really excited

2109
01:22:55,970 --> 01:22:54,000
just the other day I was uh sitting in

2110
01:22:58,810 --> 01:22:55,980
my house alone the cats were right next

2111
01:23:01,610 --> 01:22:58,820
to me and I heard creaking upstairs

2112
01:23:03,050 --> 01:23:01,620
I'm home alone this weekend and I'm like

2113
01:23:04,850 --> 01:23:03,060
I'm gonna be sleeping with the light on

2114
01:23:07,550 --> 01:23:04,860
outside my bedroom just because we've

2115
01:23:10,430 --> 01:23:07,560
talked about this for an hour it totally

2116
01:23:12,229 --> 01:23:10,440
gives me the Spooks being is uh I guess

2117
01:23:15,169 --> 01:23:12,239
you could say cynical as I am I ran up

2118
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:15,179
those stairs when I heard that I wanted

2119
01:23:19,610 --> 01:23:18,000
to see a ghost like uh those those two

2120
01:23:21,590 --> 01:23:19,620
little weird experiences that happened

2121
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:21,600
uh to me in my last apartment there was

2122
01:23:25,370 --> 01:23:23,760
the trash can lid flipping I don't know

2123
01:23:26,810 --> 01:23:25,380
they're kind of violently and then that

2124
01:23:29,450 --> 01:23:26,820
bright light

2125
01:23:31,310 --> 01:23:29,460
I was so excited about those things but

2126
01:23:32,689 --> 01:23:31,320
I like I couldn't

2127
01:23:34,189 --> 01:23:32,699
I couldn't get it anymore I couldn't

2128
01:23:35,990 --> 01:23:34,199
glean any more information out of those

2129
01:23:38,450 --> 01:23:36,000
things happening than what I already

2130
01:23:40,370 --> 01:23:38,460
observed I suppose but no I like so

2131
01:23:42,229 --> 01:23:40,380
personally no I don't have the fear I

2132
01:23:44,870 --> 01:23:42,239
don't have the uh the priming or the

2133
01:23:46,669 --> 01:23:44,880
psyching myself up unfortunately I think

2134
01:23:49,010 --> 01:23:46,679
it might make it a little bit more fun

2135
01:23:50,750 --> 01:23:49,020
it is still fun though and I like if

2136
01:23:52,669 --> 01:23:50,760
either of you get a chance to go on a

2137
01:23:54,470 --> 01:23:52,679
ghost hunt super recommended it's super

2138
01:23:56,510 --> 01:23:54,480
fun it's it's like going to a haunted

2139
01:23:57,470 --> 01:23:56,520
house essentially do either of you have

2140
01:23:58,390 --> 01:23:57,480
any

2141
01:24:01,010 --> 01:23:58,400
um

2142
01:24:03,169 --> 01:24:01,020
understanding of why there is so much

2143
01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:03,179
sort of like the haunting why is there

2144
01:24:08,750 --> 01:24:05,360
the negativity element of the ghost

2145
01:24:10,970 --> 01:24:08,760
phenomenon like what what is that

2146
01:24:13,610 --> 01:24:10,980
right like why is it spooky instead of a

2147
01:24:15,470 --> 01:24:13,620
relief or something yeah why yes yeah

2148
01:24:17,510 --> 01:24:15,480
why are the people that you would have

2149
01:24:18,950 --> 01:24:17,520
cared about why are they coming at you

2150
01:24:21,470 --> 01:24:18,960
and stuff and that's not always the case

2151
01:24:24,470 --> 01:24:21,480
obviously but yeah why are they angry

2152
01:24:25,970 --> 01:24:24,480
why are they angry at us Poltergeist

2153
01:24:27,890 --> 01:24:25,980
cases would kind of give it that

2154
01:24:29,810 --> 01:24:27,900
negative connotation because like things

2155
01:24:31,610 --> 01:24:29,820
are being thrown around and broken and

2156
01:24:32,570 --> 01:24:31,620
lost

2157
01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:32,580
um

2158
01:24:37,669 --> 01:24:35,040
I'm not sure I think I think it's just

2159
01:24:39,950 --> 01:24:37,679
that if if these ghosts are what we

2160
01:24:42,830 --> 01:24:39,960
think they are they come from the dead

2161
01:24:44,570 --> 01:24:42,840
and it's unknown you know that's that's

2162
01:24:46,250 --> 01:24:44,580
the biggest scariest thing of all I

2163
01:24:48,950 --> 01:24:46,260
suppose is the unknown and they're kind

2164
01:24:51,229 --> 01:24:48,960
of the envoys of the unknown coming from

2165
01:24:53,990 --> 01:24:51,239
this place that we can't actually get to

2166
01:24:55,729 --> 01:24:54,000
without dying you know so maybe that's

2167
01:24:58,250 --> 01:24:55,739
wrapped up in a little bit I don't know

2168
01:25:01,189 --> 01:24:58,260
personally I I've never thought ghosts

2169
01:25:02,990 --> 01:25:01,199
were scary okay yeah it's almost to me

2170
01:25:05,090 --> 01:25:03,000
it feels like the ultimate ontological

2171
01:25:06,890 --> 01:25:05,100
shock like I know that word the term

2172
01:25:09,110 --> 01:25:06,900
gets thrown around a lot but it

2173
01:25:10,130 --> 01:25:09,120
completely flies in the face of this

2174
01:25:13,130 --> 01:25:10,140
sort of

2175
01:25:15,110 --> 01:25:13,140
construction of material reality that we

2176
01:25:17,209 --> 01:25:15,120
have

2177
01:25:19,010 --> 01:25:17,219
is that why that yeah because like it's

2178
01:25:20,750 --> 01:25:19,020
like when I like I I'm trying to dig

2179
01:25:22,669 --> 01:25:20,760
deep into my feelings right now and

2180
01:25:24,830 --> 01:25:22,679
think about okay like what actually does

2181
01:25:26,510 --> 01:25:24,840
make something like this seem very scary

2182
01:25:28,790 --> 01:25:26,520
or spooky to me and I think it's this

2183
01:25:31,070 --> 01:25:28,800
notion that it would break every

2184
01:25:32,990 --> 01:25:31,080
conception I had about reality which in

2185
01:25:35,149 --> 01:25:33,000
turn would make me think this is not

2186
01:25:37,310 --> 01:25:35,159
something I could escape from like this

2187
01:25:39,530 --> 01:25:37,320
this is something that you know are

2188
01:25:41,209 --> 01:25:39,540
faced with possibly permanently in some

2189
01:25:43,430 --> 01:25:41,219
sense

2190
01:25:46,850 --> 01:25:43,440
um I mean I think like culturally we're

2191
01:25:48,770 --> 01:25:46,860
kind of told and trained that ghosts are

2192
01:25:50,930 --> 01:25:48,780
scary through movies and things like

2193
01:25:53,209 --> 01:25:50,940
that so I mean that probably does play a

2194
01:25:55,189 --> 01:25:53,219
big role in it it's yeah it's something

2195
01:25:58,070 --> 01:25:55,199
totally uncontrollable

2196
01:26:01,129 --> 01:25:58,080
um like like this whether the experience

2197
01:26:03,290 --> 01:26:01,139
or like getting a handle on it like even

2198
01:26:05,209 --> 01:26:03,300
like I can remember being really scared

2199
01:26:06,770 --> 01:26:05,219
by like Poltergeist stories when I was a

2200
01:26:08,270 --> 01:26:06,780
kid because like this notion that you

2201
01:26:10,370 --> 01:26:08,280
could just be in your environment and

2202
01:26:12,350 --> 01:26:10,380
stuff would start flying around or fall

2203
01:26:14,030 --> 01:26:12,360
off the walls or whatever like it's

2204
01:26:15,229 --> 01:26:14,040
completely out of your control and all

2205
01:26:17,750 --> 01:26:15,239
of a sudden you're trapped in this

2206
01:26:19,729 --> 01:26:17,760
environment with an energy or Force God

2207
01:26:22,729 --> 01:26:19,739
knows what it's up to but you don't have

2208
01:26:24,470 --> 01:26:22,739
any sway over it whatsoever sure

2209
01:26:27,770 --> 01:26:24,480
it makes sense

2210
01:26:31,550 --> 01:26:27,780
and it's like so in history like there's

2211
01:26:33,709 --> 01:26:31,560
the UF like the UFO and then there's

2212
01:26:36,649 --> 01:26:33,719
like the fairies and the ghosts and all

2213
01:26:38,510 --> 01:26:36,659
of that and I like

2214
01:26:41,570 --> 01:26:38,520
there was a time when all of these

2215
01:26:44,689 --> 01:26:41,580
things were actually one thing which was

2216
01:26:47,689 --> 01:26:44,699
like you know the will of the Wisp

2217
01:26:49,490 --> 01:26:47,699
um you know which was a luminous entity

2218
01:26:51,410 --> 01:26:49,500
of some kind that you would see

2219
01:26:54,890 --> 01:26:51,420
potentially in the forest and then it

2220
01:26:57,050 --> 01:26:54,900
was meant to uh guide you astray away

2221
01:26:58,370 --> 01:26:57,060
from your path you follow it and then

2222
01:27:01,129 --> 01:26:58,380
you end up dying in the swamp or

2223
01:27:02,629 --> 01:27:01,139
whatever and

2224
01:27:03,950 --> 01:27:02,639
um it's it's just making me think it's

2225
01:27:06,110 --> 01:27:03,960
like because then they originally were

2226
01:27:07,850 --> 01:27:06,120
kind of like this Central entity and

2227
01:27:09,709 --> 01:27:07,860
then science started to sort of like

2228
01:27:11,510 --> 01:27:09,719
fragment it and then we ended up having

2229
01:27:13,550 --> 01:27:11,520
kind of these separate things which like

2230
01:27:15,709 --> 01:27:13,560
the ghosts and the UFOs and stuff and

2231
01:27:17,330 --> 01:27:15,719
then even today at Brown Mountain in the

2232
01:27:18,950 --> 01:27:17,340
states it studied and then some people

2233
01:27:20,450 --> 01:27:18,960
say they saw UFOs and people say they

2234
01:27:22,610 --> 01:27:20,460
saw a ghost and people say they saw ball

2235
01:27:23,810 --> 01:27:22,620
lightning and so then you've got kind of

2236
01:27:28,189 --> 01:27:23,820
like

2237
01:27:30,890 --> 01:27:28,199
a re-uh integration of these things as

2238
01:27:34,070 --> 01:27:30,900
they're more like closely observed with

2239
01:27:35,390 --> 01:27:34,080
modern like kind of like

2240
01:27:37,430 --> 01:27:35,400
trying to figure out like like it's

2241
01:27:39,709 --> 01:27:37,440
almost like the the cultural

2242
01:27:42,110 --> 01:27:39,719
um conversation has caused these things

2243
01:27:44,390 --> 01:27:42,120
that were separated uh to come back

2244
01:27:49,790 --> 01:27:46,970
I mean we're all just kind of blindly

2245
01:27:52,189 --> 01:27:49,800
labeling all these like spooky and weird

2246
01:27:54,370 --> 01:27:52,199
experiences whether it's ghosts or UFOs

2247
01:27:57,110 --> 01:27:54,380
or anything like that these are like

2248
01:27:58,910 --> 01:27:57,120
anomalies that we're experiencing or

2249
01:28:01,850 --> 01:27:58,920
potentially anomalies and we're just

2250
01:28:04,610 --> 01:28:01,860
doing the uh we're applying that Thunder

2251
01:28:07,129 --> 01:28:04,620
has got bowling kind of theory to it you

2252
01:28:09,950 --> 01:28:07,139
know they're all I mean essentially

2253
01:28:12,530 --> 01:28:09,960
arguments from ignorance right and like

2254
01:28:14,270 --> 01:28:12,540
in uh in uh Christianity especially in

2255
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:14,280
the Garden of Eden you know it's like if

2256
01:28:20,030 --> 01:28:17,280
you eat the apple you are it's the tree

2257
01:28:22,850 --> 01:28:20,040
of knowledge right it's like when you

2258
01:28:24,830 --> 01:28:22,860
actually start like uh looking out at

2259
01:28:27,229 --> 01:28:24,840
the world is when God throws you out of

2260
01:28:29,390 --> 01:28:27,239
the garden and then you have this idea

2261
01:28:30,770 --> 01:28:29,400
that the the uh you know the fairy or

2262
01:28:33,649 --> 01:28:30,780
whatever was this thing that would like

2263
01:28:34,970 --> 01:28:33,659
guide you off of the path and I'm just

2264
01:28:37,010 --> 01:28:34,980
thinking about this where it's like

2265
01:28:38,810 --> 01:28:37,020
these there are periods where it's like

2266
01:28:40,010 --> 01:28:38,820
encouraged to look at the anomalous and

2267
01:28:42,110 --> 01:28:40,020
then there are periods when it's like

2268
01:28:43,610 --> 01:28:42,120
forbidden and then it's like what

2269
01:28:45,709 --> 01:28:43,620
happens like where are we now it's

2270
01:28:47,209 --> 01:28:45,719
almost like such a blending with the way

2271
01:28:49,729 --> 01:28:47,219
that Society is right now where it's

2272
01:28:52,189 --> 01:28:49,739
like everything is permissible almost

2273
01:28:54,709 --> 01:28:52,199
that's good I like that

2274
01:28:56,530 --> 01:28:54,719
It's My Philosophy uh degree coming out

2275
01:29:00,610 --> 01:28:56,540
I guess

2276
01:29:02,810 --> 01:29:00,620
I like that that was that was good

2277
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,820
well gentlemen we're at the bottom of

2278
01:29:06,470 --> 01:29:03,840
the hour

2279
01:29:09,470 --> 01:29:06,480
Nick this was great Campbell awesome

2280
01:29:10,850 --> 01:29:09,480
contributions uh what do you guys have

2281
01:29:13,129 --> 01:29:10,860
next

2282
01:29:15,229 --> 01:29:13,139
or what's going on

2283
01:29:16,910 --> 01:29:15,239
um I've got a show I've got uh the

2284
01:29:19,850 --> 01:29:16,920
second episode of invisible Residence at

2285
01:29:21,830 --> 01:29:19,860
9pm on Tuesday with Matthew Riot uh

2286
01:29:24,350 --> 01:29:21,840
we're gonna be talking about some weird

2287
01:29:25,490 --> 01:29:24,360
stories I I don't know what we're

2288
01:29:28,010 --> 01:29:25,500
talking about yet I think I'm talking

2289
01:29:31,370 --> 01:29:28,020
about a a very strange and mysterious

2290
01:29:34,610 --> 01:29:31,380
catfisher uh by the name of lash I don't

2291
01:29:37,370 --> 01:29:34,620
know internet catfisher

2292
01:29:39,649 --> 01:29:37,380
um no kind of an imper uh an in-person

2293
01:29:42,229 --> 01:29:39,659
one kind of a uh well he studied the

2294
01:29:44,930 --> 01:29:42,239
Arts of uh the pickup

2295
01:29:46,790 --> 01:29:44,940
among other things uh definitely

2296
01:29:49,430 --> 01:29:46,800
definitely tune in and watch that it's a

2297
01:29:51,649 --> 01:29:49,440
really weird story and it's uh not

2298
01:29:53,870 --> 01:29:51,659
completely resolved yet but there's a

2299
01:29:56,810 --> 01:29:53,880
lot of weird tangents that goes on um

2300
01:29:58,729 --> 01:29:56,820
and it does slightly tie into

2301
01:30:01,129 --> 01:29:58,739
um aliens so that's that's always

2302
01:30:04,430 --> 01:30:01,139
worthwhile right reptilians in fact

2303
01:30:06,709 --> 01:30:04,440
perfect Too Many spoilers but I've got

2304
01:30:08,930 --> 01:30:06,719
that going on though that's about it and

2305
01:30:11,930 --> 01:30:08,940
that's Tuesday night at 9pm

2306
01:30:14,330 --> 01:30:11,940
great what about you Campbell

2307
01:30:17,870 --> 01:30:14,340
um well I've been busy uh wrapping

2308
01:30:19,610 --> 01:30:17,880
things up Outdoors uh so I have been uh

2309
01:30:21,290 --> 01:30:19,620
stepped away a little bit from the UFO

2310
01:30:23,209 --> 01:30:21,300
stuff but uh I've just been continuing

2311
01:30:24,950 --> 01:30:23,219
to work on the website cleaning it up I

2312
01:30:26,810 --> 01:30:24,960
just reread it over and over and just

2313
01:30:28,910 --> 01:30:26,820
refine it and refine it so that's

2314
01:30:31,090 --> 01:30:28,920
basically been what I've been doing uh

2315
01:30:33,950 --> 01:30:31,100
in this sphere

2316
01:30:35,390 --> 01:30:33,960
uapstudy.com right yes thank you for

2317
01:30:37,189 --> 01:30:35,400
mentioning it I forgot to even say

2318
01:30:38,510 --> 01:30:37,199
anything you know last weekend I

2319
01:30:40,669 --> 01:30:38,520
actually went through and finally read

2320
01:30:43,010 --> 01:30:40,679
it like top to bottom like I'd skimmed

2321
01:30:45,590 --> 01:30:43,020
it previously and finally read it and uh

2322
01:30:47,629 --> 01:30:45,600
dude I want to say huge props it's a

2323
01:30:49,790 --> 01:30:47,639
really great resource really well cited

2324
01:30:52,010 --> 01:30:49,800
really rigorous well written well

2325
01:30:54,229 --> 01:30:52,020
constructed I was very very impressed it

2326
01:30:55,910 --> 01:30:54,239
also prompted me to subscribe to uh

2327
01:30:57,350 --> 01:30:55,920
Smithsonian Magazine because I think

2328
01:30:58,790 --> 01:30:57,360
there were a couple articles that you

2329
01:31:00,530 --> 01:30:58,800
liked there and I was like oh this is

2330
01:31:03,290 --> 01:31:00,540
really great yes

2331
01:31:04,550 --> 01:31:03,300
um thank you everyone here in the chat

2332
01:31:05,870 --> 01:31:04,560
right now should check out that while

2333
01:31:06,770 --> 01:31:05,880
you're at least bookmark it and read it

2334
01:31:10,310 --> 01:31:06,780
later because

2335
01:31:11,930 --> 01:31:10,320
yeah it's uapstudy.com yeah it's it's

2336
01:31:14,270 --> 01:31:11,940
really good

2337
01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:14,280
um yeah so uh I mean my updates on my

2338
01:31:18,290 --> 01:31:16,320
end we have Louis caitano he was our

2339
01:31:19,910 --> 01:31:18,300
guest last week he's sort of an off and

2340
01:31:23,030 --> 01:31:19,920
on again member here of invisible night

2341
01:31:25,970 --> 01:31:23,040
school he wrote on uh Consciousness and

2342
01:31:29,050 --> 01:31:25,980
the role in the UFO and alien Mythos uh

2343
01:31:31,010 --> 01:31:29,060
that article is posted on the

2344
01:31:32,750 --> 01:31:31,020
invisiblenightschool.com right now got

2345
01:31:34,310 --> 01:31:32,760
it posted early last week definitely

2346
01:31:35,629 --> 01:31:34,320
give it a read

2347
01:31:37,669 --> 01:31:35,639
um we're going to continue doing these

2348
01:31:39,110 --> 01:31:37,679
live streams hopefully Saturday nights

2349
01:31:41,750 --> 01:31:39,120
maybe we'll find another time but

2350
01:31:42,590 --> 01:31:41,760
Saturday nights seemed to be good

2351
01:31:45,350 --> 01:31:42,600
um

2352
01:31:47,629 --> 01:31:45,360
yeah and uh you know we'll drop in on

2353
01:31:49,490 --> 01:31:47,639
Nick's new show Tuesday and uh maybe

2354
01:31:51,770 --> 01:31:49,500
throw in some Twitter spaces in the

2355
01:31:56,390 --> 01:31:53,990
no we haven't I know I've been on really

2356
01:31:58,010 --> 01:31:56,400
mode and haven't been around also yeah

2357
01:31:59,689 --> 01:31:58,020
every everyone pray that I get a job or

2358
01:32:01,370 --> 01:31:59,699
a client soon so I can unlock my Twitter

2359
01:32:04,010 --> 01:32:01,380
account and get back to me publicly

2360
01:32:05,510 --> 01:32:04,020
weird instead of privately weird

2361
01:32:08,149 --> 01:32:05,520
um

2362
01:32:10,070 --> 01:32:08,159
all right thanks guys appreciate it as

2363
01:32:12,229 --> 01:32:10,080
always have a nice night and thanks so

2364
01:32:29,370 --> 01:32:12,239
much for everyone tuning in cheers yeah

2365
01:33:07,260 --> 01:32:36,430
[Music]

2366
01:33:26,330 --> 01:33:07,270
[Applause]

2367
01:33:26,340 --> 01:33:29,950
foreign